Getting tired of it...

TandJ said:

Now that I look this, I realize something.. This has indeed become a waste of my time, getting drawn into the debate of ego.. Screw it, I need to slam on my brakes here.. Indeed I realize I have been manipulated by anothers ego, and it just becomes as pointless as banging my head against the wall... :headbang:

Enough is enough.. I am through with this..

Tim of T and J

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Wait, wait, wait. An ego cannot manipulate. A person can manipulate, or a person can jump into an argument despite not wanting to be argumentative, and realize that one has been weak in one's resolve, But a person cannot be manipulated by another's ego. That claim, in itself, is a failure to take responsibility for one's own actions and blame them on another. Not that I don't agree with most of your points--I do--but you can't have your cake and eat it to. If you want to stand up and say what you think, you've gotta stand up and say you're going to argue for something you think. Don't back down and don't blame it on anyone else. Just say what you think and leave it at that. And try not to be contradictory, 'cuz jazz 'll nail you on that everytime! LOL!

That's what I adore about you, jazz, your unforgiving devotion to sound logic and reasoning and your devotion to dismantling muddled and impeachable arguments. It keeps a person who cares about such things (like me) honest, because we know you're out there watching. Not that I wouldn't try hard anyway, because I prefer to present unimpeachable arguments always, but it never hurts to know someone's watching. Gives you just a few seconds of pause before you hit the submit button, and makes you pay the money to get the edit function. Furthermore, though I do not necessarily admire it, I greatly respect the impartiality with which you apply your talents. Impartiality, is not something I find myself in possession of too often, nor do I feel any particular desire for it, but I do respect it.

tricksterpup said:

Jazz, you need to be taken out back and beaten by her.. not me.

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tricksterpup said:

Its ok, I hear Jazz has this same problem. :sidestep:

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tricksterpup said:

I having fun seeing people post pictures of Jazz in his underoos. So I am not sure what everyone is talking about.. :shrugs:

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Ladies and Gentlemen, meet my stalker.

regards,
jazz

desertanimal said:

Wait, wait, wait. An ego cannot manipulate. A person can manipulate, or a person can jump into an argument despite not wanting to be argumentative, and realize that one has been weak in one's resolve, But a person cannot be manipulated by another's ego. That claim, in itself, is a failure to take responsibility for one's own actions and blame them on another. Not that I don't agree with most of your points--I do--but you can't have your cake and eat it to. If you want to stand up and say what you think, you've gotta stand up and say you're going to argue for something you think. Don't back down and don't blame it on anyone else. Just say what you think and leave it at that. And try not to be contradictory, 'cuz jazz 'll nail you on that everytime! LOL!

That's what I adore about you, jazz, your unforgiving devotion to sound logic and reasoning and your devotion to dismantling muddled and impeachable arguments. It keeps a person who cares about such things (like me) honest, because we know you're out there watching. Not that I wouldn't try hard anyway, because I prefer to present unimpeachable arguments always, but it never hurts to know someone's watching. Gives you just a few seconds of pause before you hit the submit button, and makes you pay the money to get the edit function. Furthermore, though I do not necessarily admire it, I greatly respect the impartiality with which you apply your talents. Impartiality, is not something I find myself in possession of too often, nor do I feel any particular desire for it, but I do respect it.

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Um, thanks Stephanie....I think?

Not that I'm anyone to claim economy of language, but you'd save a lot of keystokes next time with "devotion to being an anal-retentive, logic-obsessed asshat who shows no mercy to anyone". Yeah, that's the ticket. :grin01:

(So much for my Miss Congeniality sash, eh?)

In any case....thanks. Kind words indeed.

regards,
jazz

Just to add to what Carol has said . . .

This is from the perspective of one who was not involved in the chat incident and who has never visited chat for more than about 15 seconds (I don't multitask very well and chat is always a little too ADD for me--not the people, just the beast. Mom says I never watched Sesame Street when I was little because the vignettes were too short for my long attention span and I found it disconcerting.).

My perspective is that people who have acted like adults their whole CS.com lives got a little out of hand once. And Rich came storming in acting like he was everybody's dad, out to give everyone a whooping for picking on the irritating littlest brother. And, like rigid dads that I know, he wouldn't listen to ANYTHING anyone else had to say. Well, some people, when they grow up and become adults, they like to be treated like adults, even when they lapse just a little and act like children for a split second. Sometimes, adults like to have conversations about how they'd like to see things done, and they like to be listened to. But Rich just said, "NOPE. This is MY house, and you were all BAD kids, and you can't ACT like this in MY house. We play by MY rules here. Take it or leave it." And that was Rich's right, because no matter what other people have contributed to the family, this is his house. But some of the grown-ups decided that they didn't want to play by Dad's rules anymore, and in fact, they think that Dad's rules are whack. And they are grown-ups, so they moved out. And they started their own families, where they get to set their own rules.

I could be totally wrong, but this is how it has felt to me. This is only MY impression of the events that have occurred. And it may not be at all reflective of what those really involved have felt. But I think it may be for some, and it is my metaphor, as I am one of those people who doesn't speak to her Dad. (And he doesn't call or write, either, lest you be concerned.) Because I think his rules are whack, and his rigidity stifles real adult conversation and growth. And I never really cared when my little sister cried because I sat on her when she was being a ridiculous ass, because that's what ridiculous asses deserve. And trust me, regardless of whether my dad or I have been right or wrong, the situation is infinitely, INFINITELY healthier for me than it was when I had to stay living under Dad's rigid, whack rules that never allowed for any change or growth. And that doesn't make me right or wrong, of him right or wrong, it just makes us different, and our views on things incompatible. And incompatible people everywhere would be much better off if they knew when to walk away.

jazzgeek said:

Not that I'm anyone to claim economy of language, but you'd save a lot of keystokes next time with "devotion to being an anal-retentive, logic-obsessed asshat who shows no mercy to anyone".

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Oh I gave up on economy of language a long time ago . . . if I ever knew about it. Have you seen that commercial of the little girl in the back seat of some Volvo when her dad picks her up from school and she's talking and talking and talking and says, "And THE-EN . . . and I don't know WHYYYY . . ." and she goes on talking and talking and talking and talking . . . We love that commercial, because that was me when I was 3. And also when I was 30, and 31.

First, let me readily admit that I did not take the time to read the entire 29 pages posted here.

I have a great deal of respect for many of the members here, and 'the others'. But as one of the people who used to spend A LOT of time on here let me put in my quick .5 cent.
It just became no fun. I can get behind 20+ pages of dumb arse jokes, completely off topic random thoughts, Deans newest addition or even some good spirited troll bashing. However threads like this which (from the little I have read and with absolutely no disrespect to the originator who I am sure did not intend it to go this way) are nothing but petty little a$$ biting contests. I can listen to that from my teenagers.
Sure there will always be disagreements and someone will take a little sarcasm the wrong way...but in the end we used to act more like grown ups.

I still come around to check out who's got what going on, but its like when a new crowd takes over the old club...its just not the same.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to desertanimal again.

Roy Munson said:

I feel the same way. My enthusiasm for the hobby has never been stronger, but I can't say the same regarding my enthusiasm for this forum. It's hard for me to describe my feelings about why this has happened. The trolls and agitators are only a part of it. Sometimes I wonder if it's some kind of culture shock. You and I were used to seeing many of the same, familiar members doing their usual job of making this place great. Now they're elsewhere, there are a bunch of new usernames, and this place doesn't feel like "home" anymore.

But I think there's more to it than that. I completely agree that the quality of thread topics has declined considerably in only a couple of months. The atmosphere just seems sillier around here. I think there's a good reason for that, and I hope I don't offend anyone by pointing it out. There are two categories of posters here: the hobbyist/breeders and the pet-keepers. I place myself in the first group, but I have nothing against the second. I was in that group at one time. However, pet-keepers generally do not have the same passions for the same aspects of the hobby as the hobbyist/breeders do. There's nothing wrong with that. Just as they are unconcerned with the interactions between the striped and motley genes, we are unconcerned with how often Snakie is pooping. Six months ago, the hobbyist/breeder to pet-keeper ratio was probably 40:60. Today, it feels more like 10:90. This isn't the direction I would have hoped for, but it is what it is.

Here are my own conclusions as to how I'm going to proceed. I can't imagine a time when I won't contribute here both financially and in terms of forum participation. I will never completely give up on a place that has meant as much to me as this place has. But I will engage in the serious hobbyist/breeder discussions wherever they are being hosted-- here or elsewhere. And I will commit time and resources to any place where the hobbyist/breeders' interests come first. This isn't an elitist position; it is one of preference. We're all entitled to our preferences.

:-offtopic I don't know if I deserve to be in your "fantastic people" group, but thanks anyway. You belong in that group as much as anyone does. :bowdown:

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I prefer not to get involved in board drama of any kind but I want to say a few things.

There isn't a troll or jerk poster out there that can make a new pet owner feel bad quite like an experienced owner/breeder can and this thread proves it. Just reading the above post was enough to make me feel unwelcome simply because I'm new, silly, not a snake breeder, and not overly serious all the time. Sure you added plenty of disclaimers but reread your post from a newcomer's point of view and tell me you can't see where I'm coming from here.

Do you want to know what made this board great for me? It wasn't the people who left or the people who were serious all the time. It was the ones like Nanci, blckkt, Fender, Tyflier, etc, who took the time to answer my questions even though hundreds of people before me probably asked the same one. It was the people who laughed with me, encouraged me, and voluntarily offered more than enough support that made this site great.

Take a look around folks and quit mourning the loss of people who chose to leave. It's a friggin message board on the internet, not you 'home'. There are going to be times when you hate the people here and think the threads are all stupid. You'll get annoyed by newbies like me but you know what? Deal with it because this site was created just as much for people like me who have no experience as it was for people like you. No matter how many transparent disclaimers you add to your post, it's obvious you see snake owners as less than breeders but at one time you were a lowly owner too who had no idea what you were doing.

Instead of complaining about the loss of the 'greats' why not do what people like Nanci and CornCrazy did and become one? The 'greats' earned their reputation by being people that everyone could go to for help. They don't complain about stupid things like 'boring threads' or 'silly' posters. They treat everyone with respect instead of sitting on a high horse looking down on people while pretending they aren't.

The bottom line is that this is a message board and if you want to make it better, adapt to the changes instead of expecting them to adapt to you.

Well...hell...this topic went from serious to funny and now back to serious. Except, the recent threads about "the chat incident" seems to have opened up some old wounds that haven't quite scarred over for some. Sometimes, it's better to leave well enough alone...but that has never been one of my forte's(where's the little accent symbol on my keyboard??)...

Anyhoo...

I wasn't here for "the chat incident". And I will admit that I did not sift through 30 pages to read it all, only the first 5-6. In all fairness, those two facts should heavily discount any opinions I have on the subject. But that doesn't stop me from having them(will it ever?)

I can't blame Rich for "nipping it in the bud". This is his website, and reflects entirely on him, his business, and his personality, if things go awry on HIS website. The same is true if things go correctly. Positive and negative effects will both take place from the actions of members of this site, however, we ALL know that negative publicity always come faster and more severe than positive.

From what I gather, the chat-room used to be one part of a public chat area, much like the Romance Room in Yahoo! Chat. People that were publicly advertising this website acted in a way that was unbefitting, in Rich's opinion, and rather than let it go and give people the impression that it was OK to act in such a way, he made a public announcement that it was to be stopped.

Fair enough, IMO.

Now that seems to have angered a few people, not because they didn't want to act respectably, but more because they felt as though they should have been forgiven the incident without a public display. Also...fair enough.

But the problem is, and I've said this before(I think even in this topic??), the precedent that the behavior sets in the minds of other people.

Had Rich taken the time to respond to the "offenders" in private, the rest of the forum, and future chat-users, would not have benefitted from knowing exactly where Rich stood on the behaviors expected in chat.

From the first few pages, it appeared to me as though Rich was trying to make a blanket statement to ALL chat users about the expected "code of conduct" in the chat-room, without naming names, and without making a public display of who was at fault, or even what exactly happened. Merely..."Act like adults or don't use it. Everyone has the right to be here, and other topics have the right to be discussed."

It wasn't until several members made bold statements regarding this decision that Rich decided to whip out the chat log and let people see for themselves what happened.

And yes...at that point, people were offended, embarrassed, and pissed off.

So, after the dust settled, people decided they didn't like what happened here, for the chat incident as well as other incidents which occured, and they left to go "play" elsewhere. And you simply cannot blame anyone for doing that. If an argument cannot be settled in a mutually agreeable manner, nobody should be chastised, ridiculed or called "immature" because they choose to walk away and leave it alone. In fact, the action is the exact opposite of immature. It is one of the most mature moves an individual can make to settle and un-resolvable argument...just walk away.

And nobody can really blame Rich for protecting his investments in this forum, the chat room, his businesses, and the other websites he is associated with. In order to protect his investments, he needs to establish rules. Those rules are his to make and his to establish. Anyone who is unwilling to abide by those rules, must simply leave. The way he wants things done, from avatars, signatures, "Come visit my website" threads, contributing member logos, the location of paid advertisements, and forum moderator text coloration...they are his way. And that is as it should be.

Desertanimal made the analogy of a father and child that don't see eye to eye. I agree with her analogy. Much like her, I left my home at the ripe old age of 15 because I couldn't live by the rules my parents set forth. They made an ultimatum...follow my rules or move out. I moved out. I don't feel guilty, and neither should they. It was an irreconcilable situation, and the choices made were the best for all parties involved.

The same is true of what happened here. Rich made his rules. He made his rules as blankets for the entire community from the longest-standing member, to the newest of the noobies, and nobody got any favoritism. A very commendable action, to be honest. And those that did not agree with that decision, made the choice to leave. Quite frankly, it is probably the best scenario for all involved, much as with my decision to leave home, and desertanimal's decision.

So to further incite and insinuate, and call people immature based on very reasonable and rational decisions, is, at least in my oh-so-humble opinion, not only unecessary, but utterly ridiculous. To divide a community of snake lovers based on the URL each chooses to type into their web browser is ludicrous. To judge people in a negative light based on decisions they made that were in their own best interests is simply ridiculous. Are you (generally speaking) as a breeder gonna refuse to sell snakes to a competant keeper because they post "over there" instead of here? Am I not going to be granted entrance to the next big Herp Expo because I post here and not over there? Do these battle lines really need to be drawn in the sand? I don't think so. I don't think this division is necessary. People will frequent where they are comfortable, and it really is as simple as that. No need to judge based on another person's decisions.

With that said, I do find it sad that many of us here are missing out on very knowledgable contributions from members that refuse to come here. Of course, it goes both ways. Folks that only come here and won't (or can't) go there are missing out as well. And so are the members of The Source.

Anyhow, as usual, this is just another in my long list of opinions. They don't count for much, but I (almost) always feel better for typing them out...

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to SnakeNBake again."

Well said...

So Chris, have YOU seen the commercial to which I was referring?

http://new.volvocars.com/wwygavt/

Click on any one of the pics on the bottom left, then a new window pops up and pick the second pic--the one of the little white girl's face. It's not the whole commerical, unfortunately, but you get the idea.

Oh...I've seen it. And I, too, am somewhat of a blabbermouth... :santa:

carol said:

In all fairness, you not visiting the other site could be seen as "throwing a fit" just as much as those who choose not to come here. Being around longer and having more members does not obligate people to put their best efforts here. I don't wish to make this personal, I have nothing against you and respect your right to your opinion, but since I was mentioned I thought I'd tell my side of the story. I can't tell you why others left although I feel I have a good grasp on what they have told me. I CAN tell you some reasons why I am not as active here. The easiest explaination is that I'm just "in the mood" for that atmosphere more often than I am this one, but there is more to it so I'll be honest about it. But before we get there, I will say that my breeding plans will be posted here as soon as I have the list ready. I probably should be doing that now, but I decided to write this post instead.
I think Dean's comments here are just perfect, I wish I could rep him a million times over in this thread, but I just don't find enough good posts here to spread enough around:
I'm really having a hard time finding words for how I feel, so I just filled an entire page with with an illustration of how I see things. Now looking at it I don't think it needs to be posted, but it did help me get a grip (albeit my grip) on the situation. We can argue all day on whether someone's actions were reasonable or not and at the end of the day all you have are two opinions.
I don't consider myself a "great", but I have been here a long time and have put untold hours into trying to help "build" this site. I've been here since this site was SMALLER than the Source is now. I've seen people come and go, and I also saw a select group that stayed year after year, 99% of the time adding a wealth of knowledge to help this site prosper. Post upon post of information that worked towards the progression of the hobby. Spending hours collecting info that would best help us learn about keeping and breeding our snakes. I saw people spend years building GREAT reputations. Does that mean new people aren't "great"? Absolutely not, but it is true that they haven't put in the hours, thought and posts to earn the reputation....yet. Any of these new ones are welcome to do just that.
Unfortunately, I also saw these reputations that were built up over years, be smashed to pieces over a couple of days of desperate immaturity. Any attempt these people made of explaining themselves was labeled as trying to "justify the behavior". Really no one was justifying anything, there is a difference between justifying and explaining. When these folks tried to explain they had just got to their wits end and lost it, their years of work and contributions here didn't even earn a listening unjudging ear. EVERYTHING they did from there on out was accused of being motivated purely by immaturity. And how ironic.... it's still happening! It really bothers me how easily years of reputation were thrown down the toilet after a couple of days of immature behavior. The whole situation left them "damned if they do, damned if they don't". 1% of inarguably unacceptable behavior wiped out 99% of good citizenship.
Where am I? I didn't participate in the "horrific" actions that took place in the chat logs, but I did leave chat after trolls had overrun it. I was offended by another post made stating that people left chat because they were.... guess..... the...... word...... immature. I'm really getting sick of that word and it definitely strikes a nerve with me here.
On a different note, when you see just how quick and easy it is to loose your reputation here, you just don't have the same gusto in maintaining it. Throw together a bunch of people who have lost their gusto in maintaining their reputation and you see what you have here. To some people giving up on having a reputation will cause them to be nasty, and others like myself have no desire to cause trouble for the site, but also no longer have a desire to spend valueable time building something up that is so easily taken away.
I still enjoy stopping by and helping out when I can but doing so is now in a different place on my priority list, and I don't think having cornsnakes.com #1 on your priority list is a requirement here. Just like Rich, I have many things on the burner and it's a personal choice which one you will give attention to first.

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Just what exactly IS a "listening unjudging ear"? I certainly did listen to all the arguments (whether justifications or explanations), but I would think those people posting those arguments would certainly want them to be judged. Otherwise why present them? So judge them I did, and I still could not find any reason to say "Oh, yeah, you are right. You were completely justified to act as you did then."

Their reputations "smashed to pieces"? Are you talking about the same people that earlier in this thread members here were referring to as the "greats"? Doesn't sound like those reputations were very smashed to me. And certainly I seriously doubt their reputations concerning anything to do with corn snakes was even touched at all. How could it be? Some of them lost control of their manners in the chat room? Manners in the chat room will not MAKE a reputation that means anything in the real world, nor will that behavior infringe on it. Go ahead, ask anyone here who may have been here at that time and witnessed what was going on. Even in my case, although I did not appreciate that behavior even a little bit, it did not change my opinion of how I thought of those members as PEOPLE and their relationship to the work they do with corn snakes at all.

Seriously, some of those people believe that that incident damaged their entire reputation? "1% of inarguably unacceptable behavior wiped out 99% of good citizenship"? Sorry, but no, I just don't see it. So will anyone here chime in if THEY felt that the people engaged in that chat incident lost their reputation because of it? Maybe it's just me, but I certainly don't see it that way at all. And if anyone had reason to be disgusted and consider the perpetrators of that incident in a permanently unflattering light, I thing that would be me. And that certainly is not the case at all.

I guess the most discouraging part of that incident to me was not that it happened, but that it was thought to be justified (or could be explained away), which meant certain members were pointedly telling me that it would happen again. That, of course, was just not acceptable, and I certainly felt the necessity to strenuously make that point known. If that makes me the bad guy, then yes, I AM the bad guy.

desertanimal said:

Just to add to what Carol has said . . .

This is from the perspective of one who was not involved in the chat incident and who has never visited chat for more than about 15 seconds (I don't multitask very well and chat is always a little too ADD for me--not the people, just the beast. Mom says I never watched Sesame Street when I was little because the vignettes were too short for my long attention span and I found it disconcerting.).

My perspective is that people who have acted like adults their whole CS.com lives got a little out of hand once. And Rich came storming in acting like he was everybody's dad, out to give everyone a whooping for picking on the irritating littlest brother. And, like rigid dads that I know, he wouldn't listen to ANYTHING anyone else had to say. Well, some people, when they grow up and become adults, they like to be treated like adults, even when they lapse just a little and act like children for a split second. Sometimes, adults like to have conversations about how they'd like to see things done, and they like to be listened to. But Rich just said, "NOPE. This is MY house, and you were all BAD kids, and you can't ACT like this in MY house. We play by MY rules here. Take it or leave it." And that was Rich's right, because no matter what other people have contributed to the family, this is his house. But some of the grown-ups decided that they didn't want to play by Dad's rules anymore, and in fact, they think that Dad's rules are whack. And they are grown-ups, so they moved out. And they started their own families, where they get to set their own rules.

I could be totally wrong, but this is how it has felt to me. This is only MY impression of the events that have occurred. And it may not be at all reflective of what those really involved have felt. But I think it may be for some, and it is my metaphor, as I am one of those people who doesn't speak to her Dad. (And he doesn't call or write, either, lest you be concerned.) Because I think his rules are whack, and his rigidity stifles real adult conversation and growth. And I never really cared when my little sister cried because I sat on her when she was being a ridiculous ass, because that's what ridiculous asses deserve. And trust me, regardless of whether my dad or I have been right or wrong, the situation is infinitely, INFINITELY healthier for me than it was when I had to stay living under Dad's rigid, whack rules that never allowed for any change or growth. And that doesn't make me right or wrong, of him right or wrong, it just makes us different, and our views on things incompatible. And incompatible people everywhere would be much better off if they knew when to walk away.

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Sorry, but that was NOT a one time situation, never repeated before. I had received quite a few chat logs whereby although there was definitely an offended that needed to be dealt with (and yes, I often did ban the person in those cases), there was obviously reactionary posts that were also problematic in their responses. From my perspective, this activity appeared to be escalating and had apparently reached the point where it was just obviously inappropriate and could not be allowed to continue any longer.

As for me "storming in like everyone's dad", sorry, I think you are over dramatizing my response. But it is still there in black and white for all to read and make their own conclusions up as to whether my response was justified or not. And no, I DID listen to everything everyone had to say. From the belittling of the FaunaClassifieds site to the claims that basically it was MY fault for allowing things to get out of hand so much. My stance (father like or not) was that the behavior was just not something I wanted to have on this site. From anyone, no matter the circumstances. I had not intended to cut and paste that log publicly, but it became quickly apparent that my interpretation of that log was being called into question. My intent had originally had been to make a "To Whom It May Concern", type of post. But the very first reply pretty much put enough doubt into the conversation that without proof, there was no chance at all for me to make my case sound like a reasonable response to an unpleasant incident. Yes, maybe I should have blanked out the names on it, but quite honestly I never even thought about doing that at the time. Which in thinking about it, I probably would not have had the time to do that amount of editing anyway, considering the time of year it took place.

So anyway, that conversation is still there for anyone interested in reading it, as well as all the arguments placed by either side. Yes, I was FIRM about that behavior not being appropriate here, regardless of the reasons or instigations preceding it. I honestly expected better from those people who participated in it. I was shocked, disappointed, and angry that members were actively verbally slapping each other in the manner I was made witness to. It was, quite frankly, inexcusable. But it certainly was not a hit on their REPUTATION in this field. It was a PERSONAL issue not a BUSINESS or PROFESSIONAL issue at all. They acted in a PERSONAL manner that I did not want to see on this site. As such, for me personally, it made not a whit of difference concerning any change in my opinion of their PROFESSIONAL REPUTATIONS at all. They just got carried away personally, and it was that behavior and ONLY that behavior that I was addressing.

So tell me, what rules of mine here are "whack" (whatever that means, but certainly something seemingly negatively viewed)? There really aren't many at all that I can think of here. Anyone see a list of them somewhere? Generally speaking I don't even actively patrol this site looking for things I could even consider as "rule infractions". You all send them to me and ask that I act on them. Which is what I do if I feel it is warranted. In this capacity, I assume that "no news is good news" as I am normally only notified about "bad news". My preference is to be light handed in such cases unless it is so blatantly obvious that someone is being detrimental to this site that there really is no choice in what I have to do. Pretty much I just give you all the freedom to pretty much do what you want and act like you want. It is only in extreme cases that I ever even read anything that needs intervention, and I would hope that would remain the case. That problems are EXCEPTIONAL and not the RULE here. So as for my rules being "whack", I beg to differ.

So when I got that copy of the chat log, which anyone can view to verify (which is in THIS thread -> http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40370), I really felt I had no choice in the matter but to do something about it. So go ahead, read it and tell me what YOU would have done in my shoes. Yeah, certainly later on in the thread I got more overheated then I should have, but I think reading through that thread, it may become obvious that I wasn't on a one way street with getting that escalating case of attitude. Yeah, maybe some of you will think my objection to the behavior was "whack", but although I am not exactly certain what that term means, I'm pretty sure it was not UNREASONABLE at all.

And yeah, "poor Rich" does have other sites to work with and cannot give this one undivided attention..... Sorry about that, but that is just the way it is.......... As was mentioned, this IS a slow time of year, so I can do some non Corn Snake interests.

SnakeNbake said:

I prefer not to get involved in board drama of any kind but I want to say a few things.

There isn't a troll or jerk poster out there that can make a new pet owner feel bad quite like an experienced owner/breeder can and this thread proves it. Just reading the above post was enough to make me feel unwelcome simply because I'm new, silly, not a snake breeder, and not overly serious all the time. Sure you added plenty of disclaimers but reread your post from a newcomer's point of view and tell me you can't see where I'm coming from here.

Do you want to know what made this board great for me? It wasn't the people who left or the people who were serious all the time. It was the ones like Nanci, blckkt, Fender, Tyflier, etc, who took the time to answer my questions even though hundreds of people before me probably asked the same one. It was the people who laughed with me, encouraged me, and voluntarily offered more than enough support that made this site great.

Take a look around folks and quit mourning the loss of people who chose to leave. It's a friggin message board on the internet, not you 'home'. There are going to be times when you hate the people here and think the threads are all stupid. You'll get annoyed by newbies like me but you know what? Deal with it because this site was created just as much for people like me who have no experience as it was for people like you. No matter how many transparent disclaimers you add to your post, it's obvious you see snake owners as less than breeders but at one time you were a lowly owner too who had no idea what you were doing.

Instead of complaining about the loss of the 'greats' why not do what people like Nanci and CornCrazy did and become one? The 'greats' earned their reputation by being people that everyone could go to for help. They don't complain about stupid things like 'boring threads' or 'silly' posters. They treat everyone with respect instead of sitting on a high horse looking down on people while pretending they aren't.

The bottom line is that this is a message board and if you want to make it better, adapt to the changes instead of expecting them to adapt to you.

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Thank you....... :bowdown: :bowdown:

SnakeNbake said:

I prefer not to get involved in board drama of any kind but I want to say a few things.

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Notice: Portions where poster dives headfirst into the drama have been broken into sections.

(By the way, I'm a huge fan of irony.)

There isn't a troll or jerk poster out there that can make a new pet owner feel bad quite like an experienced owner/breeder can and this thread proves it. Just reading the above post was enough to make me feel unwelcome simply because I'm new, silly, not a snake breeder, and not overly serious all the time. Sure you added plenty of disclaimers but reread your post from a newcomer's point of view and tell me you can't see where I'm coming from here.

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First and foremost: Hi, and a belated welcome to the site; I just got done reading your "Mean Adult Snake" thread, and it's utterly hilarious. Good to see that you and Lucif-UM, "Sir Killsalot" are getting by.

We have a few things in common. I too am not overly serious all the time, I've yet to breed any snakes (but that'll end in about 7 weeks), and I'm frequently silly.

And I've read Dean's (Roy Munson) post. And have re-read it. And I disagree wholeheartedly with your perception of it.

I think what you perceive to be "disclaimers" are (from my perspective of someone who is about to become a "hobbyist breeder" (there's a joke in there somewhere, but I have a point to make (if I would only stop embedding parenthesis))) empathetic understandings of someone who has been on the "pet owner" side, and whose passion for the hobby has taken him to the "hobbyist breeder" side. He has made the assertion that pet owners don't have the same passion as hobbyist breeders do. One would presume that to make such an assertion, one would have had to put some mileage on in both pairs of shoes.

Do you want to know what made this board great for me? It wasn't the people who left or the people who were serious all the time. It was the ones like Nanci, blckkt, Fender, Tyflier, etc, who took the time to answer my questions even though hundreds of people before me probably asked the same one.

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If those who have left before you arrived here would even have a remote chance of making this board great for you, I'd really appreciate it if you could:

1. contact my father and tell him that I love him and think of him every day. He died in October of 1996.
2. Let me know who's going to win the Super Bowl, so that I may properly wager.

The joke aside, and without trying to sound patronizing, but good on ya! It's great to have your questions answered in a timely fashion.

Speaking of questions, what's the latest with the "dilute" gene? Is it a simple recessive, or codominant with anery and motley only? And what's going on with the latest breeding trials?

Oh, you don't know? Wellllll, some people who would be curious about that question are missing some people who would be able to answer that question, and they feel that the "ol' gray mare just ain't what she used to be", because of their departure.

Does that make you feel less of a contributor to this forum? It shouldn't. Does that make you feel less welcome to participate in this forum? It shouldn't. Does that make you feel that you need to be "more serious" about the hobby, lest you be shunned here like a leper? It shouldn't.

Besides, sloughing off body parts can get pretty messy. (Don't ask me how I know this.)

It was the people who laughed with me, encouraged me, and voluntarily offered more than enough support that made this site great.

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And ya know what? It was, and is, the people who are laughing with/at me, are encouraging me, and are offering support as I ask the annoying "first clutch" questions to those who have been there before as well. It's just a different level of experience. :shrugs:

Take a look around folks and quit mourning the loss of people who chose to leave.

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I'm not telling you how to react to this sentence, you insufferable, pathetic newbie. Who are you to tell me what to do? (Did I mention that I'm a huge fan of irony?)

I can't speak for him, but I don't think that Dean misses communicating with people that are just a URL away. I think he misses the quality of the posts on this friggin message board on the internet.

It's a friggin message board on the internet, not you 'home'.

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Whoa, that was weird !!!

There are going to be times when you hate the people here and think the threads are all stupid.

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As a fan of the bell curve, I believe that extremism on either side is not warranted, both in considering that all threads/people are stupid, and in making such a generalization.

You'll get annoyed by newbies like me but you know what? Deal with it because this site was created just as much for people like me who have no experience as it was for people like you.

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I don't think that Dean was making any assertion as to who the site is "for". He simply, and arbitrarily, categorized the the types of users.

No matter how many transparent disclaimers you add to your post, it's obvious you see snake owners as less than breeders but at one time you were a lowly owner too who had no idea what you were doing.

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And again, I see no "hierarchy" in Dean's assertion. To "not have the same passion" about breeding corns is NOT a stake of "superiority". They're just two different "types", with the one neither superior nor inferior to the other.

But that's MY perception. You've stated that "it's obvious". Therefore, presume I'm a dullard (many people here do). Show me where it's "obvious", and I'll concede the point.

Instead of complaining about the loss of the 'greats' why not do what people like Nanci and CornCrazy did and become one? The 'greats' earned their reputation by being people that everyone could go to for help. They don't complain about stupid things like 'boring threads' or 'silly' posters.

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I'm trying to follow the logic here.

You've claimed that you got here after the """"""greats""""" (I use multiple quotes to emulate the fingery "air quote" thingies.) left.

You then state how the """""greats""""" "earned their reputation".

In essence, you're claiming to know the behaviors of people who left before you arrived.

And as one who has been here, and lived through the "schism", I can truly assert that the """""greats""""" complained about boring threads (while wittily participating in them), and "silly" posters (while wittily goading them on....we were the kitties, they were our balls of yarn).

They treat everyone with respect instead of sitting on a high horse looking down on people while pretending they aren't.

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Agreed, but let's bear in mind that respect is earned. Yes, there's a base level of civility that should be accorded to all (except those rare buffoons who are not serious about their inquiries, and are here to troll), but if you want respect, you get like E.F. Hutton gets their business....you earrrrn it.

The bottom line is that this is a message board and if you want to make it better, adapt to the changes instead of expecting them to adapt to you.

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I'll give latitude, but to say "Yes, let's DROP ALL OUR STANDARDS of decent conduct and netiquette, and 'go with the flow', riding the waves like plankton" is something I won't do. That's where you lose me.

As I see it, if you want to make it better:

1. Make yourself better.
2. Observe The Golden Rule.
3. And remember, the policeman is your friend. :grin01:

regards,
jazz

carol said:

Being around longer and having more members does not obligate people to put their best efforts here. I don't wish to make this personal, I have nothing against you and respect your right to your opinion, but since I was mentioned I thought I'd tell my side of the story. I can't tell you why others left although I feel I have a good grasp on what they have told me. I CAN tell you some reasons why I am not as active here. The easiest explaination is that I'm just "in the mood" for that atmosphere more often than I am this one, but there is more to it so I'll be honest about it. But before we get there, I will say that my breeding plans will be posted here as soon as I have the list ready.

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Thank you for your reply, Carol. When I mentioned you, it was simply on the context of that statement. I am really interested in what you'll be producing this year (I think I read somewhere your were doing Z x Amel Stripe or something along those lines - and you know me, anything new with Stripe or Motley perks my ears!), and would find it extremely disappointing if you would not share your plans publicly (rather then to just that forum).

Carol said:

In all fairness, you not visiting the other site could be seen as "throwing a fit" just as much as those who choose not to come here.

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As far as the above, I understand where you're coming from. But you can not deny that the reason why that forum was started was because of that forum's Admin throwing a temper tantrum here (Caroline I believe; I linked the post somewhere here in one of my replies). Why should I jump through hoops because that person couldn't handle decisions made here? I think the whole situation that led up to what happened is a load of BS. I can not support a forum that exists because someone didn't like Rich's decisions on how he wants to run his forum. I don't think Rich's decisions were ludicrous and unreasonable and think the reason for the other forum coming into existence is juvenile (I changed the word for you ).

Wow, I can't believe I just read all 30 pages in this thread. :shrugs: And on that note, I just pulled a 12hr midnight shift and am going to bed

Have a wonderful day

I will only add this :

The reasons why I started The Source are my business.

The reasons why peoples are joining The Source and post there are their business.

But I know this :

NOBODY has the rights to jugde or insult anyone for visiting both sites or not. And nobody is a looser or anything bad because they are not posting here anymore or are posting differents things here and there. This is just their choice.

I wonder why this is so a big problem for another forum to be there… It should not change anything here. :shrugs:

Yeah, dam*, I was away for one evening and this all happens. A few thoughts, probably won't help anything, but I won't say I don't usually do this - maybe I do it too much. So, in no particular order:

Dean is a reasonable and likable fellow, and he does not belittle pet owners. I hope Rich's agreement with SnakeNbake's post does not also concur with her review of his alleged viewpoint. What Dean has described roughly as resource-hogging honestly comprises the largest percentage of valuable/interesting/entertaining material on this site, as far as I'm concerned.

No one's reputation was lost in the chat thread. The inflexibility of everyone's opinion on that thread (except Dale's one switch) is testament to the fact that no one changed their minds about anything. However, constantly rehashing the issue did not lead to increased harmony but rather led to new feuds and finally Rich (rightfully, I think) killed the thread. Let's not pick up where we were forced to leave off. (Dale, are you and Joe talking again?) If you weren't even there, why would you want to get involved in it?

I appreciate Rich's lenient approach to this site, because I have as little faith in Utopian internet forums as I do to Utopian societies. The more you decide to forcibly exclude what you don't like, the smaller and more rigid your world becomes.

Pet owners can be interested in genetics. Snake people can be interested in programming. Being a breeder neither indicates genetics knowledge nor defines a scope of interest. These lines might make convenient generalizations to make sense of things, but they are inaccurate at best.

That'll do.

-Sean

jazzgeek said:

And I've read Dean's (Roy Munson) post. And have re-read it. And I disagree wholeheartedly with your perception of it...

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I'm very happy that I was able to rep you for this post, Dale. I really, really appreciate the time you took to defend my post. I could NOT have done a better job. And your other points were exceptionally well presented as well. Thanks again.