Taken a turn for the worst. I need help/advice..

You can set the time to correspond with the time in london.

After seeing the vet today.... Has the vet ruled out Para ... ...???
You have said you would let the herp community know that....
Den

Word for word from the autopsy: "We cannot rule out the possibility of paramyxovirus at this point and screening of the sera of other snakes present in this collection is recommended". HOWEVER it also says "There was evidence of mild pneumonia..." wich IMO is the most likley 'suspect'.

Tula_Montage said:

Word for word from the autopsy: "We cannot rule out the possibility of paramyxovirus at this point and screening of the sera of other snakes present in this collection is recommended". HOWEVER it also says "There was evidence of mild pneumonia..." wich IMO is the most likley 'suspect'.

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In the notes I wrote from your telephone conversation with me, I have written the phrase "no evidence of paramyxo virus found", can you confirm if I have heard this correctly? I was sure it is correct as I remember we did discuss at length that from the PM of one snake, they're not going to guarantee it isn't in any others (obviously - that would be impossible!), but that they confirmed no evidence was found in Windsor.

You also said in our MSN conversation earlier:

"All you need to know is its not paramyxovirus. So your animals will be fine."

So with this and your last post, I am confused as to which is correct ... was paramyxo ruled out in this snake as you said on MSN and on the phone, or not ruled out as you said in your last post?

Well, since you have already answered your own question then no it's most likley not paramyxovirus, which is good news for both of us. They did not find inclusion bodies in Windsor.

They have neither confirmed or denied the possibility of paramyxoviris however it seems very unlikley.

the vet said to me today...

I have no idea if this was virul or bacterial...we dont know whats caused it..

we probably wont find out...

the fact it is unlikely to be paramyxovirus at this study stage is great,.,

but yes the report says.. we cannot rule it out.. which is not great .. regardless of WHY they wrote it .. it stil feels uncomfortable reading that

Tula_Montage said:

Well, since you have already answered your own question then no it's most likley not paramyxovirus

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I just wanted to clarify as one of your statements was a definite negative, while another was inconclusive. Thanks for clarifying that.

klootie said:

but yes the report says.. we cannot rule it out.. which is not great .. regardless of WHY they wrote it .. it stil feels uncomfortable reading that

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To be honest I imagine it's been specifically mentioned only because it was tested for and because there will have been a few people phoning the surgery to ask about paramyxo, after the thread on RFUK - it's a standard thing to test for.

I imagine after proper viral panels come back (rather than just the gross PM results) we will get a more conclusive result as to whether it was viral or not. If bacterial, you might not find out the specific bacteria involved if the only animals tested had already had antibiotics, but since the antibiotics won't have any effect on viruses the viral panel should still be possible and provide useful information. I hope you get it back soon Lynn, the wait for these things is always too long.

Its a pity that paramyxo was creid when you werent sure of anything, but are now reluctant to come forward when you do know things which would alleviate a lot of peoples concerns....

Its terrible that a snake lost its life... but please do make it in vain....We could learn a lot from results re good husbandry practices and how better to protect in the future.....
We all learn from mistakes

Denise

Denise said:

Its a pity that paramyxo was creid when you werent sure of anything, but are now reluctant to come forward when you do know things which would alleviate a lot of peoples concerns....

Its terrible that a snake lost its life... but please do make it in vain....We could learn a lot from results re good husbandry practices and how better to protect in the future.....
We all learn from mistakes

Denise

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I am not reluctant in the least bit. When I have information worth sharing It will be made public. I actually had a message on my answer machine tonight after I got in saying my black milks swabs had come back and that I need to get in touch with them asap.

Windsors death was deffinatley not in vain... I have learnt a bloody hard lesson, and I can only hope other people will realise just how important good hygiene practice is!

I hope that the black milks results come back ok. After my IBD scare this summer, I don't envy being in your shoes throughout all of this. But if they are pretty much ruling out paromyxo and definitely did not find inclusions, then that's extremely good news. Fingers crossed for you and your babies!

dionythicus said:

I hope that the black milks results come back ok. After my IBD scare this summer, I don't envy being in your shoes throughout all of this. But if they are pretty much ruling out paromyxo and definitely did not find inclusions, then that's extremely good news. Fingers crossed for you and your babies!

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Thank you.

Its a HUGE relief, but we are still not out of the woods yet unfortunatley.

So if there is no IBD or Paromyxo, then there is still an infectious RI suspected?

diamondlil said:

So if there is no IBD or Paromyxo, then there is still an infectious RI suspected?

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Hi Lil xxx

basically at vets monday elle and i spoke for 45 minutes to herp vet...

he explained it COULD be VIRUL or BACTERIAL.. he said theres not really anything such as a simple RI... we pondered on the fact that windsors issue might have been like this...


Did his non-eating cause him to go downhill and become unwell with Ri symtoms from an enternal source... or internal source that passed to my snakes through husbandry mitakes ell and i made..

OR did he pick up an RI bacteria or virus that caused him not to eat.. was he born weak maybe.. which in all walks of life some animals can be and we dont know especially with snakes if they are harbouring things... and the non-eating triggered natural bacteria in him anyway..

OR... his non-eating for 8 months caused his immune system to be shot to pieces and he couldnt cope with any type of bacteria or virus.. and the bacteria or whatever it was had a field day and saw there chance to attack his system.

we wont probably ever know.unless the results were waiting on coem back with something conclusive.. so there wil be concern hanging over the heads of us all that we COULD have done something differently for these animals.. we SHOULD have.. wel for me and elle anyway..

I for one now see the importance of taking absolute repsonsibility and holding my hands up as soon as I realise mistakes... passing them on to other herp keepers to help them think and check what they do... we could al share this info safely if we didnt have such a fear of being judged...

I would prefer to be looked down on for mistakes ... than people see me as having an unblemished reputation and being perfect..... for me thats nonsense and we ALL make mistakes.. its human to do so.. and even more human to admit it....



so back to the vet stuff.....

whether the problem be fungal, bacterial or virul..

in this case we have no idea HOW it passed... i wish we did... but we have managed to work out at least this...

elle used same tongs to feed windsorand my carpet python , she offered windsor a mouse which he refused... ( jsut to clear up at no point was this mouse in HIS MOUTH as some peopel have accused) she then washed the mouse and fed to MY python who was at her house... now her royal windsor was not in same room as shug... BUt the passing of the problem i think must have happened then.... it passed from my carpet python shug to elysium my daughters royal i think when i fed elysium in a tub after shug... i didnt know shug was ill at this point.... but within 2 days both had RI symtoms...

between elle and myself weve paid over 300 pounds for testing etc... we still have some tests to return but as vet said on last visit... it may not show anything specific..

its so distressing knowing im just giving my snakes meds that might not work.

BUT if i can say this without jinxing things... i felt they seemed a bit better this week... i just pray im right...

and IF they pull through which i dearly hope they will... its stil going to be very frustrating not knowing what fixed them... did the meds do it.. if so what ones... if so was it bacterial... did they get over it themselves...????

theres going to be SO SO many questions and if we ( BEING ELLE AND i)dont obtain a definitive answer theres always going to be people saying were hiding something...


WERE NOT..

but until ALL results are abck posting a pile of scientific blurb that only means were no further forward seems pointless..

at least if we wait til ALL results are back elle can provide them int ehre complete entirety...


fingers crossed and thank you for al the support

xxxxx

PS sorry about bad typing and spelling

klootie said:

Did his non-eating cause him to go downhill and become unwell with Ri symtoms from an enternal source... or internal source that passed to my snakes through husbandry mitakes ell and i made..

OR did he pick up an RI bacteria or virus that caused him not to eat.. was he born weak maybe.. which in all walks of life some animals can be and we dont know especially with snakes if they are harbouring things... and the non-eating triggered natural bacteria in him anyway..

OR... his non-eating for 8 months caused his immune system to be shot to pieces and he couldnt cope with any type of bacteria or virus.. and the bacteria or whatever it was had a field day and saw there chance to attack his system.

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All snakes carry bacteria on them that can present respiratory symptoms in certain circumstances. You could prove this by getting a healthy snake, and putting it in sub-optimal conditions ... it will develop a respiratory infection. Now, the bacteria hasn't appeared out of the air when the snake is cold, it is simply part of the animal's natural system that has overwhelmed it when the immune system is depressed.

Windsor left here on August 19th, and from the information posted by Elle, fed voluntarily from August 20th to September 30th, gaining 100g in that time. He then first presented with respiratory symptoms on the 5th October. If Windsor's respiratory illness was related to him not eating, then surely he would have developed it during the six or so months he was here and not voluntarily feeding (he was assist feeding - I never force fed him as I believe that to be too stressful and unnecessary in the circumstances, but he allowed himself to be assist fed just enough to maintain his weight over that time).

I just don't understand how the non-feeding could linked to a respiratory infection that didn't present any symptoms for six weeks after he began feeding again. Could you ask your vet to explain how that would work? Did the vet present any other scenarios that weren't linked to his period not feeding? Surely his immune system would be at a lower point during the non-feeding, than after he was feeding regularly again, so if that was a factor symptoms would have been expected during the non-feeding period?

I don't doubt for one minute that a stronger snake might have fared better - but there also had to be a catalyst for his coming down with a respiratory illness at the particular time that he did. Looking back at when Elle reported he first took ill, I had a particularly bad time that week getting some of my royals to feed after the weather up here took cold very suddenly (I notice Elle said that Windsor last ate on September 30th, which fits with my snakes - all my royals ate on September 29th or 30th, then refused feeds on October 5th or 6th). The low end temperatures were not particularly cold, and certainly warm enough for corns, but the themometers confirmed they were below optimum for boids, even though the central heating was on a winter timer now rather than the lower summer setting. As soon as I installed an extra heater, they started feeding again. Perhaps if I'd allowed this temperature drop to continue, they would have gone on to develop respiratory infections? Who knows ... all I can tell you is that we installed a second heater, and they all started eating again and are fine.

I can't say that the temperatures were definitely a factor in Windsor's case, but it is interesting to me that he only got ill when the weather cooled down - especially when only a week earlier, Elle had been commenting on how fabulous, healthy, and shiny he looked. This is not an attack on Elle's husbandry, it's simply a comment on a learning curve we all are going through. This is my first winter with pythons - and it's also Elle's first winter with them, and Lynn's first winter with them. We are all still learning.

Weather aside, I also believe that time is of the essence when dealing with respiratory infections, and that aggressive treatment is necessary. Sadly, in Windsor's case neither of these things was true, as a considerable period of time elapsed between first symptoms being noticed and the initial vet visit, and although he was given antibiotics, the treatment was not continued on as long as it should have been.

Thankfully the other snakes to show symptoms received extremely prompt veterinary treatment, and more testing has been done so hopefully the treatment can be targeted to the specific illness involved, and I assume it will be continued as long as necessary. I guess all I can tell myself is that at least lessons have been learnt from poor Windsor's case and the other ill pythons will hopefully not end up with the same outcome.

Hmm, if an animal (not talking about snakes in specific here) goes for a long time without eating their body and organs adjust to the lack of food coming in and their metabolism slows down...obviously they can't maintain this state forever but in the short term it helps them cope. If that animal suddenly starts eating a normal diet again its organs (especially its heart) are just not able to cope with it (digestion does after all take energy to get going) and become overloaded....this in turn can reduce the immune system.

This is why anorexic people, for example, can be coping fine for quite a while as skeletons but as soon as they start eating again they have heart problems and have the worst few months of colds in their lives. Conversely, a lot of severely morbidly obese people go years without a bother then as soon as they start dieting have a heart attack!

Intravenous said:

Hmm, if an animal (not talking about snakes in specific here) goes for a long time without eating their body and organs adjust to the lack of food coming in and their metabolism slows down...obviously they can't maintain this state forever but in the short term it helps them cope. If that animal suddenly starts eating a normal diet again its organs (especially its heart) are just not able to cope with it (digestion does after all take energy to get going) and become overloaded....this in turn can reduce the immune system.

This is why anorexic people, for example, can be coping fine for quite a while as skeletons but as soon as they start eating again they have heart problems and have the worst few months of colds in their lives. Conversely, a lot of severely morbidly obese people go years without a bother then as soon as they start dieting have a heart attack!

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Are you referring to re-feeding syndrome?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refeeding_syndrome

diamondlil said:

Are you referring to re-feeding syndrome?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refeeding_syndrome

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Sounds like it (I don't know what you call it, just the basics). I don't know how, or to what extent, it could apply to reptiles though.

royals are notorious for their feeding habits though!!! and all snakes can go a long time between eating one meal and finding another, in the wild.

diamondlil said:

Are you referring to re-feeding syndrome?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refeeding_syndrome

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That's what it is.

I'd been aware of it in humans, from working with patients from ICU or with gastro problems needing TPN, but there are some articles linking it to extended fasts in reptiles from a quick search, although I found it mainly relating to chelonians