FIRST PIP, need ID?

Here's something that is confusing to me: Quote from Rich Z's site on Ultramels:

What would have been the better route for your project? Well a couple of ways come to mind. Some easier than others. Since you already have the Ultramel, breeding it to a Blizzard (Amelanistic Charcoal) would have given you roughly 50 percent Ultramels het Charcoal and 50 percent Amelanistics het Charcoal. Now you've got more of a fighting chance, but still, even breeding those Ultramels het for Charcoal will have it's own issues. Breeding them together will NOT get you what you would think without some long thinking about it. Remember that those Ultramels are STILL going to be giving only Ultra(Hypo) OR Amelanism to the resulting next generation offspring.

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So assuming the lighter ones I got are Golddusts ( that's the 50% w/ ultra) and the darker ones are actually Ambers, how would I explain the butters?

Now Kornatter says this outcome is possible:

1/4 Caramel Ultramel het.Hypomelanistic
1/4 Caramel Amelanistic het.Hypomelanistic
1/4 Caramel Hypomelanistic Ultramel
1/4 Caramel Hypomelanistic Amelanistic

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Assuming ( I don't even know if this is possible) The dam is a Caramel Hypo Ultramel and the Sire is a Caramel Amel het Hypo?
Wow, The ultramel is the ultimate wrench in all this...On Kornatter the Ultra is also listed??? I'm confused!
PS) genwiz won't work on my CP and mick's doesn't have ultramel?

So if:

Remember that those Ultramels are STILL going to be giving only Ultra(Hypo) OR Amelanism to the resulting next generation offspring.

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:from Serpenco again

My female ( consider her a Golddust) gives an Amel gene to my male (consider him a butter het hypo) and it doesn't get the het hypo then we have
a butter.

If she gives a hypo/ultra gene to the male and it does combine with the amel and then we get golddusts.

If she gives a hypo/ultra gene to the male and it combines with the het hypo we have ambers.

Does THIS make sense? I'm starting to get a headache from this

ForkedTung said:

My female ( consider her a Golddust) gives an Amel gene to my male (consider him a butter het hypo) and it doesn't get the het hypo then we have
a butter.

If she gives a hypo/ultra gene to the male and it does combine with the amel and then we get golddusts.

If she gives a hypo/ultra gene to the male and it combines with the het hypo we have ambers.

Does THIS make sense? I'm starting to get a headache from this

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But what is a Golddust?? Is it an Ultra Caramel or an Ultramel Caramel?? It's thought that you cannot tell the difference between the two visually. And we've got Hypo thrown into this mix as well!

If I've thought through this properly, your female would have to be homo Ultra and (het Hypo), not an Ultramel in order to get any darker Caramel hatchlings and they would still be Ultramel Caramels which were not supposed to be able to visually identify . . . :shrugs:

If your female is a het Ultra/Amel (Ultramel), then you wouldn't be getting any darker individuals as you'd be getting all Ultramel Caramels and Butters.

I'm going back to thinking that Ultra may not be involved here . . . of course Rich inidicated he's getting even more headaches with Hypo-like genes now more than ever. Maybe now you're empathizing with him!! :crazy01:

Love to see more pictures of the darker ones and of course after they shed!
D80

If your female is a het Ultra/Amel (Ultramel), then you wouldn't be getting any darker individuals as you'd be getting all Ultramel Caramels and Butters.

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D80

I guess:awcrap:what I'm getting at is if those are Golds then my explanation for the darker ones are that they are Ambers and NOT Caramels...Time and a few good sheds will tell ( I HOPE!!!) before I lose it.

Who invented this Ultramel gene anyway:fullauto:

ForkedTung said:

D80

I guess:awcrap:what I'm getting at is if those are Golds then my explanation for the darker ones are that they are Ambers and NOT Caramels...Time and a few good sheds will tell ( I HOPE!!!) before I lose it.

Who invented this Ultramel gene anyway:fullauto:

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The thing is, if you take Hypo completely out of the equation, it's the same results. A Golddust, from my understanding doesn't have Hypo in it at all. It's just the Ultra gene at work. You shouldn't have straight Caramels. Your Amber is a straight Caramel with the Hypo gene on top of it. Does that help clear up what I was trying to say?

Got some reading time on your hands? I've packratted a few subscribed threads over the years and dug these up:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39915
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28136

D80

Clutch pic

The darker one sure does look darker compared to the others...bad lighting...better pics after shed!

Well, since the genetics are all so confusing, I could help...take some of those beauties off your hands

The genetics are probably much more confusing to a newbie like me--but I do get that those are some cute snakes!

Weird... that's all I'm going to say... lol... *shakes head* Why can't anything ever be cut and dry when it comes to genetics? Definitely weird...

Maybe they'll all start coloring up more once they shed and it will be easier to see what they are. One thing is for sure, you got one heck of a clutch going on there! lol

So could this be a clutch from an Amber, x Butter Het hypo, het ultra?
2 Different Hypo genes at work?

abell82 said:

So could this be a clutch from an Amber, x Butter Het hypo, het ultra?
2 Different Hypo genes at work?

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No... You can't have an amel (in this case the butter) that is also het for ultra. Both the amel and the ultra gene are located on the same allele So there are only three possible combinations aa (amel) au or ua (ultramel) or uu (ultra) so it is completely impossible to have an ultra het amel or an amel het ultra while an ultramel is actually het for both amel and ultra.

There could be two different hypos at work, but it would be hard to say which two, without breeding trials.

It would seem, to me, that Ultra cannot be a part of the equation.
Reason being is that Amel and Ultra share the same locus.
If the Butter male was het Ultra, he would not be a Butter. He would, instead, be a Golddust (Caramel x2 + Amel x1 & Ultra x1).
If the female Amber is het Amel (as she appears to be), she could, also, not be het Ultra or else she would be a Ultramel Amber (Caramel x2 + Hypo x2 + Amel x1 & Ultra x1) and would look closer to a Golddust in appearance.

Actually just to clarify terminology . . . an Ultramel is het both Amel and Ultra at the same time. Heterozygous indicates carrying 1 of the possible which an Ultramel is doing, carrying 1 Ultra and 1 Amel at the same locus. Doesn't change the fact that the Butter can't be het Ultra (as it would have to be a Golddust) or that the Amber couldn't be het Ultra (as she wold also have to be a Goldusts since she is het Amel).

D80

TY ALL!!!

UPDATE ON FINAL TALLY: Kornatter prediction for Butter het Hypo x Amber het Amel:

1/4 Caramel het.Hypomelanistic Amelanistic
1/4 Caramel Hypomelanistic het.Amelanistic
1/4 Caramel Amelanistic het.Hypomelanistic
1/4 Caramel Hypomelanistic Amelanistic

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My results:

Caramel: 5/16=31.25% ( should be 25%)
Butter: 4/16=25% ( should be 50%, including the hypo[unidentifiable])
Amber: 7/16=43.75%(should've ONLY been 25%) YES!!!

Thanks everyone...especially Pasodama and Drizzt80 and MrsInsaneone!
There is one egg left to pip, but it looks like a pretty even split between the 3 morphs...looking at the darker ones I'm starting to think I have Caramel, Butters and VERY LIGHT Ambers now, I'm just very happy about the whole thing. So I'm checking them out and my son River says "let's check on clutch #2" so we look and they're just starting to pip too ( these are from my Blood and a monster Classic female het blood, Char and Amel I got from Drizz recently)
BOTH clutches pipped on day 56!!!

UPDATE ON FINAL TALLY: Kornatter prediction for Butter het Hypo x Amber het Amel:

1/4 Caramel het.Hypomelanistic Amelanistic
1/4 Caramel Hypomelanistic het.Amelanistic
1/4 Caramel Amelanistic het.Hypomelanistic
1/4 Caramel Hypomelanistic Amelanistic

Click to expand...

My results:

Caramel: 5/16=31.25% ( should be 25%)EXPECTED ALL Caramels
Butter: 4/16=25% ( should be 50%, including the hypo[unidentifiable])
Amber: 7/16=43.75%(should've ONLY been 25%) YES!!!