Feeding the Unwilling

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I enjoy the challenge of working with hatchlings that don't want to eat on their own. I've been very successful in converting those I have to feeding on their own, with no apparent ill effects from their days of being force-fed. I've let the breeders with whom I have a good rapport know that I will take in non-eating hatchlings and work with them.

Yesterday, I received eight hypo hatchlings (4.4) that aren't eating on their own. I'm going to do my best to keep their weight up and teach them to eat on their own. If I'm successful, most will be placed in pet homes. This thread will serve as a diary of my progress (or lack of it).

My first step was to assign each hatchling a number so that I can tell them apart and chart the changes in the habits and health. Not feeling especially original last night, I designated them Hypo 1M, Hypo 2M, etc. These are their initial weights:

Hypo 1M: 4.8 grams
Hypo 2M: 4.9 grams
Hypo 3M: 4.7 grams
Hypo 4M: 5.9 grams
Hypo 1F: 5.1 grams (culled: kinks)
Hypo 2F: 4.5 grams (culled: kinks)
Hypo 3F: 6.0 grams (culled: kinks)
Hypo 4F: 6.3 grams

The snakes hatched out the second week of June. I don't believe they've ever eaten on their own, and I don't believe they'd been force fed either. While many people would wait longer than six weeks before resorting to force feeding, I take a more proactive position. I lost one truly beautiful and rare hatchling that I received from a breeder because she was too weak by the time I got her to respond to my feeding attempts. If a hatchling has never shown a willingness to feed itself by a month after its first shed, I'm going to get some nutrition into it as soon as I can. The longer I wait, the weaker the snake will be and the less it will be able to overcome the stress of being force fed.

My plan is to offer the hypos an opportunity to eat every four days, just as I do my other babies. If they don't eat after an hour, they get fed. If they don't eat at the next feeding, four days later, they go hungry until the time after. I will let them skip every other feeding in hopes that hunger will motivate them to eat. I will not let them go without food longer than those eight days. At first, they will each get one small pinkie. If they grow to a point where I feel they can tolerate more, I will give them a second. If I feel they are not maintaining weight on one pinkie every eight days, I will forgo the skipped meals until I get their weight up to what I find healthy.

This evening, each had the opportunity to eat. As expected, they ignored the pinks completely. After more than an hour, I began force feedings. I was able to get one small pink into each of them, with no regurges after four hours. While handling them, I noted kinks on some hatchlings. The presence of kinks had been brought to my attention before the snakes were brought to me, so this was not surprising. The severity of some of the kinks may require that some of the babies be euthanised. Hypo 1F has at least three moderately large kinks, and Hypo 1M has at least one, half way down his spine. How these kinks hamper the snakes' abilities to move and digest food remains to be seen. If, in my opinion, a particular hatchling is so impaired it cannot survive and have at least a fairly pain-free adult life, I will cull it. Doing so does not come easily to me, and I will do my utmost to find solutions that prevent having to take a life.

Kinking may be more environmental than genetic, but any kinks forward of the vent, at least in a female, render the snake unbreedable, IMHO. The stress of egg production on the spine is simply too unpredictable, and the risk to the snake too high. When coupled with poor feeding responses as hatchlings, the snakes are suitable only to be well-loved pets. I won't be keeping any with kinks and will require that never breeding the snake be an agreed upon condition of adoption. You might have noticed that I haven't mentioned the genetics behind the hypos; this is intentional. If a snake is never to be bred, the genetics are completely irrelevant. They are visual hypos, period.

Enough for tonight. The hypos are each in their own 25 ounce containers with cut-down plastic dixie cups for water and a quarter of a paper towel for substrate. Tomorrow, I'll dig out some cardboard paper towel tubes and make them some little hides. At this time of year, I have no additional heat source with any of my snakes. I live in the central valley in northern California, with daily temps running from 75 to 105, rarely dropping below 65 at night. In these temperature ranges, the snakes should be fine at room temp, and I check water bowls daily. I don't use A/C, don't even have so much as a window unit installed.

Wish me and the snakes good luck. I'll give them my best effort.

my heart goes out to you and I wish you all the very best of luck with these little babies.

And I was called a glutton for punishment for re-habbing Skooge! I'll be glued to this thread and willing you success all the way Jaxom. If a 'special needs' hatchling has a guaranteed home then I personally see no harm in giving it a good shot at survival

diamondlil said:

And I was called a glutton for punishment for re-habbing Skooge! I'll be glued to this thread and willing you success all the way Jaxom. If a 'special needs' hatchling has a guaranteed home then I personally see no harm in giving it a good shot at survival

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My big concern was whether my hands could handle feeding so many at one time. I have fibromyalgia, a joint and connective tissue disease that in many ways mimics both arthritis and CFS. The joints in the hand holding the snake can cramp painfully. In fighting the pain and cramping, I actually discovered a more efficient way to hold the snake for feeding. Previously, I'd always held the snake atop a towel on a flat surface, and it always worked well. Because I was feeding for a longer period, I had to find a way to get the food in more quickly before my hand spasmed and I had to put the snake down. I found that holding the snake against my chest, looking straight down into its mouth, made getting the pinkies, most especially the ones that split open, much, MUCH easier. Instead of the blobs constantly falling out the sides, gravity helped to keep them going in the right direction.

Hey, does holding a hatchling against your chest with one hand while forcing a pinkie into its throat with a pushrod with the other qualify as "Advanced Snake Handling"?

Have you tried sitting down, putting the snake's tail between your knees, leaving both hands free to deal with the snake? That is the way I do it.

Keep up the good work!

kathylove said:

Have you tried sitting down, putting the snake's tail between your knees, leaving both hands free to deal with the snake? That is the way I do it. Keep up the good work!

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:roflmao:I am dying over here, trying to imagine holding a nine inch hachling's tail between my knees, bending over my middle-age belly, focusing through my bifocals and manipulating a pink into his mouth. This is not a pretty picture, but it is an out loud belly-buster laugh! Thanks for that :laugh:

Sorry Jaxom but not totally understanding, do you force feed blended through a tube or do you try to put a pinkie down whole. What if the baby is too small for a pinkie do you try a head or tail?
Sorry to hear about your dx, I completely understand. I have fibromyalgia, plus degerative disc disease and crappy knees, I'm a mess but luckily the back spasms are rare. susan

susang said:

Sorry Jaxom but not totally understanding, do you force feed blended through a tube or do you try to put a pinkie down whole. What if the baby is too small for a pinkie do you try a head or tail?

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Whole pinkies. I sort out the smallest of the small pinkies in my order and feed them first, using up the bigger ones as the snakes grow. I fed tails to the first snake I had to force feed, snipped off the fuzzies before I fed older snakes. After watching hatchlings eat, I decided there is no such thing as "too small for a pinkie". I will sometimes snip a pinkie in half and feed first the front and then the back half, but the snake gets the whole mouse. I've never had a snake I force fed regurge, not once. For a description of how I feed, read this thread:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=476373#post476373

Maybe this is a stupid question, but if you cut a mouse in half (even a pink), don't the insides just kinda spill out, making it even harder to force into a tiny unwilling mouth?

Kudos to you, btw, for doing what I think most of us would be unable to do.

Thoth said:

Maybe this is a stupid question, but if you cut a mouse in half (even a pink), don't the insides just kinda spill out, making it even harder to force into a tiny unwilling mouth?

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Yes, but their insides also spill out when a pinkie splits while trying to feed, so I'm used to that. Luckily, I'm not squeamish. It does feel like trying to force a spoonful of jello into the end of a drinking straw sometimes.

Kudos to you, btw, for doing what I think most of us would be unable to do.

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Thanks. I've spent several portions of my younger past living out in the country and raising animals, so husbandry is second nature to me. I think I was eight years old when I learned to skin a rabbit to eat for dinner; innards don't phase me anymore I keep in mind WHY I'm doing this: to save a life and provide either myself or another hobbyist a pet to love. I have the time and I have the know-how; to my thinking, that means I have an obligation to use them as well.

How to word this... I guess the most simple is Thank you!!! from the very bottom of my heart. I am so new to all this baby snake stuff... never planned on doing but.. well, here I am. Plus I ordered some babies out of the shell Yep, thats me. Well, of the 16 little hatchlings I have... 6 will not eat.. nothing I did worked.. I tried everything except accosting my geckos and dragons (scenting) nothing was working at all... I was really starting to loose all hope for my 6 little lovely babies. Well, I knew about force feeding but I never ever thought I would be able to to it.. but.. Jaxom wrote out Exactly what he did and how... OMG!! I did it tonight on all 6 babies... my mom helped me... I am 39 and yessss I still call my mommy to help me She is wonderful now that I helped her over her fear of snakes so... anyway... Jaxom, the way you wrote and how confident you were and how much experience... well, it gave us the courage to do it and tonight we were able to force feed all 6 babies a pinkie head I am so happy and greatful that you went to the trouble of explaining so well how to force feed. Very thankful indeed, I have hope back hours later I am still sitting here and I want to cry, it was almost as tramatic on me and my mother as it was for the babies. But I also get very emotional about the fact that you have given me my hope back. My babies are so special to me and you have given me the gift of being able to try to help them. Big Hugs to you and I wish I could say more than thank you but please know how greatful I am!! Cat

Cat_Eyed_Lady said:

My babies are so special to me and you have given me the gift of being able to try to help them. Big Hugs to you and I wish I could say more than thank you but please know how greatful I am!!

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My heart swells to know I could help. My snakes, all of my pets, mean so much to me, and I am a wreck when one of them is ill or injured. Keep posting updates on how your hatchlings are doing, how feeding goes. It will get easier with practice. I stopped crying after my third or fourth time feeding ShoeString

I will and thanks I didnt want to highjack your thread but at your invitation I will do so They were forced about 8pm this evening (8/4) and its 4am here on the 5th and so far non have regurged. How long til the biggest danger of that is over?? 24-48 hours?? ( I dont disturb them.. they are in 3cup gladware containers that are clear on the sides and I just kinda peek )

Cat_Eyed_Lady said:

I will and thanks I didnt want to highjack your thread but at your invitation I will do so They were forced about 8pm this evening (8/4) and its 4am here on the 5th and so far non have regurged. How long til the biggest danger of that is over?? 24-48 hours?? ( I dont disturb them.. they are in 3cup gladware containers that are clear on the sides and I just kinda peek )

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I've actually never had a baby I force fed regurge :shrugs: I think that stroking the throat helps the pinkie get down far enough to discourage regurging, and the fact that most pinkies split while I am trying to get them in makes them easier to digest. No slitting necessary! :grin01: If they keep them down until the next day, the bulge will be practically gone and the risk of regurge is minimal. I still don't handle them until the third day, just to be on the safe side.

You are using containers about the same size I am, 25 fl. oz. (3 1/8 cup), and the snakes should be fine in them until they roughly double in size. Did you put some holes in the tops and sides? I put about a dozen small holes in the lids and three near the top of each side for ventilation. I use a soldering iron, but a drill with a small bit works, too. The side holes allow me to stack the containers on top of each other to save space. Since I currently have twenty-one hatchlings and six more coming in a couple of weeks, I have to squeeze where I can. I've found I can stack three columns of them, six per stack, in a ten gallon aquarium. This prevents anything from knocking into them and keeps the temperature stable by blocking any drafts. I can still see in the sides of each of them, so I can check the babies whenever I need to. The same containers, without holes in the sides, make great water bowls, and I'm using them for all of my 06s and 05s.

What are you using to provide water? Dean uses caps off soda bottles, which is fine if you make sure to check and refill them often. I've used the plastic lids off small jars in the past, and they double as bathing pools at shedding time , but they do take up a lot of floor space in the GladWare. For the current batch, I cut down plastic dixie cups to about an inch tall, and that's working very well. The small lidded containers that dip comes in with take-out food work okay, but they tip a little too easily for me.

As I said, keep posting about your hatchlings and how your feeding attempts go. Your contributions are very welcome. :cheers:

The first casualties

After examining each of their spines, I elected to euthanize Hypo 1F and Hypo 2F. Both had numerous kinks severe enough, IMO, to greatly hamper their chances at survival. When coupled with the absence of any feeding response, this was enough to convince me to put them down. After conferring with other hobbyists, I chose to use the freezer method. At their small size and with their inability to control body temp, that should be as quick and painless a passing as I can provide.

Hypo 1F had actually developed more kinks just in the past two day; I wish I understood why this happens so frequently with non-feeding hatchlings. I examined all eight of the hypo babies. Two of the males have a small kink each, and I will keep an eye on them in hopes that this doesn't worsen. The remaining 2.2 don't appear to have any kinks, and I hope it stays that way.

Now that I've made the decision and taken the action, I'm going to go mope in front of the TV while I try to convince myself I did the right thing :awcrap: What I really want to do is uke01:

So sorry to hear that Jaxom. You know you at least gave them a fighting chance.

I have a dremal so I used that to put holes into the sides of the containers because I too have to stack them up. I have some really small bits so that worked out really well because it didnt leave any sharp feeling places inside the containers. I dont have the containers in any tank.... they are on my kitchen counter against the "splash guard", then between them and the wall I have placed a heating pad on low. Seems to be working pretty good so far

As for watering, I had bought some little condiment cups at walmart but they were just too heavy for useing because they made the containers too unstable in my opinion so I asked at the deli department there and got some little sample cups from them. They hold about the same amount of water but are thin plastic and light weight They seem to be working but they do tip easier and I have to watch because I have a couple babies that seem to really enjoy tipping their waters over. lol Its not a big deal so far because they are kept on paper napkins so makes for an easy clean up.

I wasnt sure about the regurgeing so I had to ask So far none have upchucked so they should be good. But I will say this... the second one I put a head down I thought I had killed it at first... Just after I got it in her throat she stopped moving. I was panic striken I went to touch her again to see if I could get the pinkie head to move and if she was alive and she jerked away... was never so happy to see that! whew But after I got the pinkie into their throats I had to hold their mouths shut and then massage the pinkie down til they started to move it down themselves. I kept ahold of them til it was atleast 2-3 inches down their bodies and then I put them back in their containers. (did I do it ok??)

I am sorry to hear that you had to put down a couple but atleast you did try and yes, you did the right thing.. me saying that wont help you to feel any better but I know how much you care and when you care it hurts... thats what makes you human. Good luck with the remaining babies

I'm so sorry about the ones you had to put down :[ I really hope that the remaining ones will do good for you. And I want to let you know I think what you are doing is amazing