Sexing by counting the subcaudal scales?

Hi guys,

I've been re-reading my cornsnake books recently and in a couple of them it says that you can sex a corn by counting the pairs of subcaudal scales, (the ones that run the length of the underside of the tail from vent to tip).

It states that a females subcaudal scale count is between 59 and 70 pairs and a males is between 70 and 80 pairs.

Anyway I decided to give it a try with my known adults i.e those that have bred and produced eggs.
I used their shed skins to count the pairs of scales, as holding a wriggly corn for long enough to actually count those tiny scales seemed a bit ridiculous...lol

I found that my corns do indeed have a subcaudal scale count within the specified ranges. My females are 63 and 65 pairs and my male has 76 pairs!
I used their last shed skins and also went back and checked their baby sheds as well (yes I keep their very first shed with me...lol) and both counts are the same.
I can imagine that a corn with a count of 70 pairs would be questionable though.

I'm going to give it a try with my new additions when they next shed and see if their counts match what sex they've been popped for.

So what I was wondering is, has anyone else ever used this method? If so is it really that accurate?

I would be really interested in other peoples veiws and experience on this, so post away!

Thanks in advance, best wishes,

Susielea said:

So what I was wondering is, has anyone else ever used this method? If so is it really that accurate?

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Back when I first started, I used it quite regularly for all my snakes before I was able to accurately and safely probe and pop. Worked like a charm for me then as well.

D80

Hmm... I think as soon as everyone has digested, I might have to check on this theory.

Is it just for corns, or do you know about kings/milks/other colubrids?

Jrgh17 said:

Is it just for corns, or do you know about kings/milks/other colubrids?

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I would guess that it would work, but have no clue what the "magic" number would be.

I actually didn't count the tail scales alone. I used the formula of counting the scales from chin to vent and then vent to end of tail. Subtract tail count from ventral count and you get the "magic" number. I believe it was greater than 154 female, less than male. The closer to 154, the less accurate.

D80

Jrgh17 said:

Hmm... I think as soon as everyone has digested, I might have to check on this theory.

Is it just for corns, or do you know about kings/milks/other colubrids?

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The books I've got refer to Corns and other Rat snakes, so I'm not sure about Kings and Milks.

Back when I first started, I used it quite regularly for all my snakes before I was able to accurately and safely probe and pop. Worked like a charm for me then as well.

D80

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Thanks for that, I'll definitely try with my newer ones now!

Best wishes,

You know you don't have to wait for a shed. Just take a snap shot of the tail and use those zoooooooom skills.

Duh....why didn't I think of that...maybe I was having a senior moment!

Not too sure if my camera is up to the job, but it's definitely worth a try!

Good thinking Kim!

lol! a senior moment! you're not a senior just yet!

From what I have read, I have not heard about this method, but I do have a shed waiting for me at home that I would love to try it out on. It definitely seems like a good method for people to try who are either uncomfortable or unexperienced with popping or probing...like me.

katia said:

lol! a senior moment! you're not a senior just yet!

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Thank you for the compliment, but I do have senior moments....Like Christmas day when I put the Gateau in the oven to defrost, instead of the fridge....lol

My family are always ribbing me about it, but it's all in good fun!

Alright. I counted 67 scales, and by this method, she would be a female. Nice to know since I have been calling her a she.

None of my snakes are proven but they have all been probed (consistently) several times. For the three that I have counted:

Male 1 - 74 subcaudals

Female 1 - 64 subcaudals

Femame 2 - 72 subcaudals

So I am inclined to disagree with it being a completely reliable method.

Looks like Scarface is actually 'Scarlet'!

I've not had Scar popped or probed, but by using the method outlined above, along with comparing tail shapes with the help or Kathy's book, I've arrived at the conclusion that Scar is almost certainly a female.

She has 64 pairs of subcaudals and the tail definitely tapers with each pair from the vent to the tip of the tail.

Interesting stuff!

Huh???

Hi!
I was referred to this thread as I had a question about sexing snakes by the shape of the tail from vent to tip, the females being thinner and the males being thicker. I am afraid I am too new to all of this as some of the terminology is unclear to me, i.e. "subcaudal". I don't have a clue as to what that means. Can anyone clear this up for me please? I am trying to look for ways to sex my poor little snake as I would like to find her/him a mate someday soon and I don't want to end up with 12 snakes of all the same sex, lol! I doubt that would happen, but you know what I mean I'm sure. Anyway, I also am wondering what constitutes a pair of scales? Are they scales of the same color or some other criteria? Thanks so much for your help!
Helaine:rofl:

The "subcaudal" scales are the pairs of scales that run along the underside of the tail, from vent to tip.
I have found it much easier to count them on a shed skin, rather than on a wriggly snake

As you can see from previous posts, this method is not always 100% accurate, but can give you a pretty good idea of sex.

The most accurate ways of sexing corns is either by popping when very young, or probing when a little older. This should always be done by someone who is experienced with these methods. Maybe you could find a breeder near you who could do this for you?

Hope that helps,

Thanks Susie! That was a help; I appreciate you responding to it so quickly
Helaine

Susielea said:

The most accurate ways of sexing corns is either by popping when very young, or probing when a little older.

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I only have to disagree with how this statement is made . . . the most accurate way of sexing males is by popping when very young.

The most accurate way of sexing FEMALES is having them lay eggs.

D80

Drizzt80 said:

I only have to disagree with how this statement is made . . . the most accurate way of sexing males is by popping when very young.

The most accurate way of sexing FEMALES is having them lay eggs.

D80

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I have to totally agree with those statements

I really should have worded my post differently i.e "two of the other ways to sex a corn, that are considered more accurate than counting the subcaudal scales, are........"

Thanks for pointing that out

Hi, I have another question....what do the numbers next to the kind of snake listed below your name mean? I am thinking it might have something to do with what sex is available? If so, is male first then female? I am just curious what meaning it has. Thanks so much!
Helaine

nytesong said:

Hi, I have another question....what do the numbers next to the kind of snake listed below your name mean? I am thinking it might have something to do with what sex is available? If so, is male first then female?

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You got it, so if you had 1.1.1 corn snakes you would have 1 male, 1 female and one you didn't the sex of :*)