hybrid genes in all corns???

The following is a post from that other site and my responce. The thread is in the hybrid section and is about hybrid genes being in corn snakes. I was just wondering what everyone's point of view on the subject of hybrids in all snakes and how big of a problem or benefit do you think it is.

Gazz said:

Then most likely bred to a amel who's (great,great,grand perant) may have been a creamicle.I don't know/you don't know/not even Don Sodernberg know 100%/.He know that the one's he get from the wild are pure and he's hardly going to breed them to other (WC) as thay would be normal's.A amel going to be the most likely canderdate being (CB) stand's a high chance of haveing (emoryi) blood in it so then the young would have polluted blood there for not pure.

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Billybobob said:

Using that logic you could say that any type of snake could be a hybrid. I know of people (they shall remain nameless) that have sold hybrid grey bands that I am sure got put back into breeding with other grey bands. I also know of some hybrid redtail boas that looked just like regular redtails and I bet that those went on to be bred to pure redtails.

Can any one know for sure that any of their snakes are pure? Unless you collected the snake your self from the wild the answer is no. You know how many people sell locality grey bands that are not actually locality? A lot, I know that these are not hybrids but if you are in to locality it can be just as big of a problem if you want pure locality snakes.

The fact is yes the corn snake gene pool dose have some hybrid blood in it and yes so dose a lot of other snakes gene pools the only difference is that the corn snake world is willing to admit it and people who breed other snake types are not willing to even listen to anything that has to do with their snakes being hybrids.

Now this post is not meant to start any problems but to inform people that this is not just a problem in the corn snake world but is a problem in the whole world of snakes. On a side note I do worry about the whole ultra being from grey rats thing, 4 years ago the mere thought that it was from a hybrid line would have been enough to keep most breeders away, this bothers me because a lot of breeders are crossing it in to all of their lines and if it is proven a hybrid there will be a lot of corns out there that will be hybrids but sold as pure.

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I was going to edit my post but I figured most will understand my that this is all just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone. I did adjust it so it would be easier to read.

Heh I got thrown out of that place because of my views on hybrids....
I think alot of corn bloodlines are polluted. I started a thread in here last month, must be a few pages back now about this.

BUT from what I understand, the first amel was wild caught in 1963. It was a male. It was on display for a few years at a zoo in Florida and if I am not mistaken, Bill and Kathy Love knew the man that caught it. Until a few more were caught years later, this male was the ancestor of most of the amels in captivity. I am quite sure Kathy Love knows the details, I read this a few years back and my memory is not what it once was.

That would be Dr. Bern Bechtel. He was also responsible for the first motley corn. I also believe that there's a lot going on in most corns genetically. Personally, I could care less :cheers:

mbdorfer said:

I also believe that there's a lot going on in most corns genetically.

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Not in mine. Mine are absolutely pure. I vill create a race of uber-guttatas, and vith them, I vill rule the vorld! :angry01:

Roy Munson said:

Not in mine. Mine are absolutely pure. I vill create a race of uber-guttatas, and vith them, I vill rule the vorld! :angry01:

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Sounds somewhere along the lines of your new sig line, Dean

Roy Munson said:

Not in mine. Mine are absolutely pure.

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Dang, now I've got that overplayed Aerosmith song in my head :grin01:

I do not get the whole "hybrid phobia". No matter how you look at the hybrid thing, and no matter what your position on it, there remains one factor that is actually improtant: YOU. If you do not want hybrids, try to stay away from those whom you are not sure if they breed hybrids, and stick with those that you trust. If you do not take personal responsibility for what your corns backgrounds are, it's your fault. "This guy that I met at a show once sold me a snake that I think might be a hybrid because I know they breed hybrids, even though this one looked like it might be pure." Your fault. You bought the snake from a guy you didn't really know, but you saw a few hybrids on his table. Sounds like you made a bad choice. There are some people out there that are very irresponsible and underhanded and try to sell hybrids as pure, but those tend to be the people that no one knows and they tend to try to sell them as quickly as possible, as cheaply as they can. If you buy from one of them, then you are at fault for contributing to the "hybrid problem". If you buy from someone who has an idea of what their corn's genetics are (this is why the ACR is now open, to help with this) then you don't have much to worry about, do you? Buy from someone who's a straight shooter, and charges the extra $10 and gives you all sorts of information on the snakes he's trying to sell, not the guy who's trying to get rid of his snakes. I know that I got ragged by the Grand Bubble Burster for my $35 Amels, but I feel that it is a very fair price to sell those hatchlings at, considering the fact that I do not produce even a fraction of the hatchlings that a lot of breeders on this site do, and it's forced me to try to dump all my remaining hatchlings now. I don't like it, but at least I try to give as much information on my hatchlings, to those interested, as possible. I do not have a singe hybrid hatchling this year, and the few next year that I will have will be sold as such, especially since I have all the breeders that I'm using registered in the ACR. I want those who are purchasing from me to know my snakes' backgrounds, and the ACR makes things a lot easier on me.

Okay, done ranting, calming down. Basically, I think those who are under the impression that all corns are hybrids are paranoid. The majority of corns sold have very strong WC background, whether it be that their parents were WC, or their great-grandparents. Any hybridization for those snakes would have occured in the wild, unless the breeder who sold them was one of those shady, underhanded, untrustworthy people who are just trying to make a buck.

1- There is no such thing as a "cornsnake" gene. There is no such thing as an "emoryi" gene. There is no such thing as a hybrid gene.

2- Hybrids being a "problem" is nothing more than an opinion.

3- There is no such thing as a pure cornsnake or pure boa or pure greyband. There never was. There never will be.

4- Even if #3 were not true, saying that wild caught snakes are "pure" is completely ridiculous.

I was not trying to say that all corns have hybrid blood but that there is some that do and have gotten lost over the years. The ACR will help allot with this in the future.

Serp I understand your post. I posted this late at night and did not use the right words. When I use the word pure it is in the sense that most people use it although your way of thinking is more accurate.

Serp one question though; How are you registering ultras in the ACR right now as "pure" or is there some note that they might be from hybrids? I only ask this because every one is allways saying that people should be up front with the history of there snakes and I have yet to see anyone selling their ultramels as possible hybrids. From what I have seen there is no deffinite proof either way but i still think that it is irresponsible to sell them as deffinate "pure" corn. I know that the argument can be made the other way around to but this is just my opinion. (I am not trying to start a ultra debate with this just curious how they are being registered at the ACR.)

My post was not meant to start a hybrid debate but to see peoples opinions on the fact that there is all this space garbage floating around.

Billybobob said:

I was not trying to say that all corns have hybrid blood but that there is some that do and have gotten lost over the years. The ACR will help allot with this in the future.

Serp I understand your post. I posted this late at night and did not use the right words. When I use the word pure it is in the sense that most people use it although your way of thinking is more accurate.

Serp one question though; How are you registering ultras in the ACR right now as "pure" or is there some note that they might be from hybrids? I only ask this because every one is allways saying that people should be up front with the history of there snakes and I have yet to see anyone selling their ultramels as possible hybrids. From what I have seen there is no deffinite proof either way but i still think that it is irresponsible to sell them as deffinate "pure" corn. I know that the argument can be made the other way around to but this is just my opinion. (I am not trying to start a ultra debate with this just curious how they are being registered at the ACR.)

My post was not meant to start a hybrid debate but to see peoples opinions on the fact that there is all this space garbage floating around.

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Hmm, the corns in the ACR are never labeled as "pure." They are only flagged if known crosses are in their ancestry. If you want to make that into an unrealistic assumption that anything not flagged is claimed as "pure" then I'm not sure what to tell you. :shrugs:

From what I have seen there is no deffinite proof either way but i still think that it is irresponsible to sell them as deffinate "pure" corn.

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Since I don't know anything about your criminal record, should I introduce you to people as a "possible child molestor" because I don't know for sure? Is it better to be sure that people keep their kids away from you so that they won't be molested, "just in case?"

I don't think anyone has ever suggested that ultras are "definite pure corns." I think the fact that people take them at face value, that they are whatever they are "and whatever that is, it's desireable so I want one" tends to show how unrealistic it is to assert that there is a (universal) "problem" with corns having been crossed to other species.

However, even IF the stories are true, please note that the claim was that the original Ultra snake was crossed to a snow with gray rat ancestry, and it was also crossed to other corns. And please note that even if that whole story is 100% true, it does NOT make all ultras "hybrids" anyway.