Shed box gone wrong - Prometheus R.I.P. 6/10/09

Two days ago my favorite corn went in to "blue". Prometheus's history with sheds has been extremely problematic and stressful for this snake. Since I have owned the snake the first two attempts at shedding were very unsuccessful, Prometheus spent more than 12 hours trying in vain to shed, even with high humidity. All Prometheus could manage was bits and pieces scattered around the viv, and many other tattered bits and chinks still attached. So I started to use a shed box, an idea I got on another forum, at first I only would put the snake in for 30 min at a time and let it out for air. I talked with my vet and he suggested just put air holes in and leave the snake in all night. Shed 3 and 4 came alone and that is what I did, Prometheus managed to shed in and almost complete skin and only needed me to peel a small piece... ahhh success. But here comes the problem where it all went wrong, this had all taken place during the winter and I live in Saskatchewan Canada, a generally very cold winter climate, hence the viv heat bulb needed to be a 150 watt to keep it at proper temps for a 30 gallon long viv. Now we are in spring, but it has been an unusually cold spring with many nights below freezing, so I have not changed the bulb to a 75 watt yet. Apparently, it has warmed up enough that with making a plastic box, with air holes(many 40-60), water and shavings and putting a snake in it, in the viv with the 150 watt bulb did not make a shed box, but instead made a hot box and my Prometheus suffocated to death over night, while I peaceful slept beside. I post this for a few reasons: I need to talk because I feel so horrible-I feel as though I am a murderer, I wish to teach all of you out there who use shed boxes that yes they are great just be careful, because if no one has warned of the differences your homes ambient temperature can make in the viv, then you may make the same awful mistake I made, as well so that if there is someone who has a snake who needs help shedding and does not know of shed boxes then they can find out about them as they are far less stressful than forcing bathes (unless your snake likes bathes) or forcing a snake under running water (these are just ways I have heard some people try to help a snake finish a shed). Hopefully, if even one person learns something from this terrible event, then maybe Prometheus will not have died in vain!!

I feel terrible for you! I am really sorry and you have my condolences. Your idea was good and so was your heart, but if anyone else decides to do this, make sure you use a thermostat with this set up.

Again, I am sorry for your loss!

Wayne

:crying: Soo sorry about your Loss, I will keep your warning close to my heart.

Very very sorry, but your sharing this is going to help others which is a good thing. You had the best of intentions and unfortunately the worst happened, but it wasn't your fault. Good luck!

Sorry to hear.

I have a tupperware container with holes in the lid and I put about a quarter inch of luke warm water and five or six paper towels in, add snake, close it up, and in about 30-45 they emerge fresh as ever. My experience is limited, but I've never had that not work.

I am so sorry. Thank you, though, for using your story to try and help others who may make the same mistake.

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. I'm sure that no one thinks that you didn't take exceptional care of your corn. Unfortunately, things like this seems to happen for no reason at all. Thank you for sharing your experience, I'm very sure that this story will help at least one if not many new members in the future.

I'm sorry for your loss. Although we all hopefully learn from our mistakes and those of others, some of them are at a higher cost. Very brave and thoughtful of you to post this accident. I hope it helps each person who reads it to give pause before constructing any structure for their animals.
Terri

I am so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing the story, as painful as it is for you; I'm sure it will help many.

My condolences for your loss. We're going through our first sheds with our new snakes right now. I had thought about using one of those boxes, but figured if I did I would just make a hole big enough for him to get out if he wanted to. Now I'm reconsidering it entirely.

Wow, that's scary. Don't blame yourself, though. It seems you did everything you could to help him and the result happened anyway.

I'm terribly sorry for you, Asbit. That poor snake.

May I ask a question, just for better understanding. Wasn't there a hole in the Wetbox?
I cut a hole in the top mine, so the snakes can get in there, whenever they think they need it, and get out when they have enough.
Sorry if I did miss something. :dunce:

My condolences at the tragic loss of Prometheus.

However, I'm not convinced that you have the reason for his death confirmed. Did the ambient temperature in your house rise so dramatically overnight to cause the heat bulb to raise the temperature to a lethal level? And if that was the case, Prometheus would have been exposed to those high temperatures in his viv whether he was in the shed box or not. As was mentioned by another member, did you have a thermostat or a rheostat hooked up? What about the under-the-tank heat source?

I feel there may have been something else going on. If the humidity has always been at the proper level, he shouldn't have been having so much trouble with his sheds. That sounds more like a possible symptom of an underlying illness.

I am also a little perplexed about your use of shavings in the shed box. Personally, I wouldn't recommend them for that purpose as I would think they would get too mashed together in the water, creating a soggy mess that a snake would have a difficult time crawling through. Instead, using damp crumpled-up paper towels or newspaper or some sphagnum moss would stay more "fluffed" so the snake would HAVE to wiggle through it to help remove a shed.

So sorry for the hard learning expieirance... If I still lived in Saskatchewan and yu were close by would let you come and have peek at my 08's and give you a generous discount.. In the middle of the winter I fair well know how dry it can become, and well shed problems could be expected.. You might try a similair box next time to, but with an escape hole.. These little guys are pretty good at regulating themselfs unlike some other snakes or reptiles..


Regards... Tim of T and J

No hole in top

No I did not have a hole in the top, Prometheus did not like the shed box to start with and the first shed box had a hole in the top and he would not use it at all. So I went with the other style I had learned about with many many air holes. We had used it twice successfully but now the temperature in our house had gotten up to 23 Celsius and I did not take that into consideration, it in combination with the winter heat bulb 150 Watt made the warm side around 110 on the bottom of viv, so I can now only imagine what temp it got to in the shed box, as it was about half way up the viv and still with in the warm zone(not under the lamp, but still in the warm zone).

Under lying illness?

Susan can you enlighten me as to what kind of an illness that a snake could have that would only seem to affect there ability to shed.

I had Prometheus from 4/4/09 until 6/10/09, had a vet check, blood was drawn and a poop smear was done and nothing was present in either. Upon acquisition Prometheus was 72 grams and had been weighed 2 days before death at 120 grams.

Prometheus never regurgitated, never had any excess fluid from the nostrils or mouth with gentle rubbing forward under the throat, there were no mouth sores or discoloration, the snake was able to slither fine, was active, flicked tongue often especially when allowed out of the viv. There had never been an escape, nor was it ever housed with another snake. The viv was a 30 gallon long cool side ranging from 70-78 and warm side from 85-110(vet recommended as it gave a wide range for thermo-regulation and if the snake ever did need to fight anything it would choose the warmer side to increase metabolism and recoup much better and faster on its own). Also upon the vets recommendation there were 3 hides, warm, middle and cool, as well as forced bathes to ensure adequate hydration 5-10 min long daily in warm not hot water. UVB light, calcium dusting on F/T mice, feed every 7-10 days, humidity ranged 40-50%, Aspen shavings, fresh de-chlorinated water every 3 days or sooner if needed. Prometheus was very strong and thick and when feed always had a first, large poop with in approx. 36 hrs.

As for shavings in the shed box vs paper towel. I first used paper towel but found I had a hard time being able to tell if all of the pieces of Prometheus's shed came off as it was translucent and the wet white paper towel was similar colored. So then I just wet aspen then put some extra water in the bottom of the box. Prometheus would slither around on top and dig in to it some, it worked the very best compared to all the other efforts.

Also, I do not have a UTH, because I did not know about thermostats and how they worked, but I did know that UTH's and heat rocks have caused burns. So I was scared to harm the snakes and none have UTH's. But since this has happened and people have mention I should have UTH's with thermostats, I have been researching them. It seems like I can not get a digital thermostat in Canada and am going to have to order off of the internet. Any one have suggestions as to reliable thermostats or UTH's. I read on another forum, several people who did not like ZooMed and suggested ExoTerra Rain Forest UTH?? Any opinions?

I give you all of this information because I have been working very hard to make sure I learn all I can to provide the best possible care and environment for my Corns. So if there is anything you can think of that I may have missed or should know, have not become aware of, I would greatly appreciate the info so I can better care for the Corns that still live here and future Corns. I am sure that others who read this thread for information will also appreciate it as well.

Tisha

Hi Tisha. I'm so sorry to hear of your problems - I agree that it's very brave of you to post and I thank you for doing so. You sound like such a caring owner and it's a great shame that things have ended up so badly for you.

A few things jump out of me from your description:

warm side from 85-110 (vet recommended as it gave a wide range for thermo-regulation and if the snake ever did need to fight anything it would choose the warmer side to increase metabolism and recoup much better and faster on its own).

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I feel that's far too warm for the hot side. Anything over 90 degrees is potentially dangerous for Corns. I'd have gone for 90 as the maximum. The cool side sounds fine though, and with hides in all temperature zones, he should have been able to thermoregulate successfully.

Could I ask what type of thermometer you're using to measure the temps, and where in the tank you're taking the measurements?

forced bathes to ensure adequate hydration 5-10 min long daily in warm not hot water.

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Firstly, some Corns are highly stressed by bathing - you shouldn't force it on them. Some are perfectly happy with it and even seem to enjoy it, but they should never have to be forced. Stress will make any underlying health problem worse.

Secondly "warm not hot" is a subjective thing for humans. A Corn's ideal maximum temp is below human body temperature - basically, if the water felt warm to you, it would have felt scalding to your snake. You need to be measuring the temp of bathing water as closely as you would the temps in the tank.

UVB light

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Corns don't need UV light as they are not a basking species and do not rely on sunlight to produce calcium. This may have been another source of stress.

I think the main lesson to take away, is never to trap a Corn in a temperature zone that it can't get out of. They must be able to thermoregulate at all times.

If a snake is having trouble shedding but refuses to use the humid box provided, then keep changing the box until you find something that the snake will tolerate. Try offering more than one in different temperature zones, with different substrates - try to work out what the snake's looking for, rather than what we feel we ought to provide.

However, overall, I feel that Susan's right and there must have been some other kind of issue that was affecting your lad. Regular poor sheds are not a health problem in themselves, but a symptom that something else is going wrong. It could be a different health issue, or it could be husbandry conditions (as per comments above).

I do hope that you feel able to get another Corn Snake - they're such great animals and you really do have such a caring and responsible approach. I think that the key to future success will be a regulated heat source - UTH plus thermostat is a very good way to go. I'm confident that with your attention to detail, you'll be able to research them and feel comfortable to use them.

Good luck to you and keep us posted.

Bitsy Thank you so much for your great response and taking the time to address my long windedness. I really do love these snakes and have the desire to be the best surrogate mom/environment for them I can. They are the world to me.

The idea about trying different shed boxes with different types of substrate until I find the one the snake like is great I had never even thought of that.

As for the temps my thermometers are round dials and they are stuck to in side of the tank just above the substrate so that I get the closest temp reading to what the snake feels down on the substrate.

The forced bathes, the vet never explained that I would need to be so careful with the water temp, and it did not click in my brain about the difference in their body temp as compared to theirs. Now I feel so bad and wonder if they have had wicked hot bathes. God I hope not. It is so hard because where I am I only have one herp vet available and I would hope that he would know what he is talking about. In the future you are saying to just continue with the XL water bowls I have and if they want to bath they should??

If corns are diurnal then does it not stand to reason that they should need the UVB?? I really am confused on this on issue because I have the vet and several others say they need it for the calcium and them more than those say no they do not. So my question to you then is, if I have already purchased the bulbs, and only use them during a general daylight pattern say 8-8 will this stress them out or would it just simulate the wild and with hides they can get a darker spot if they wish. I really like the way they light up the tank to see and I would hate to have wasted $30/bulb. What do you think?

I am religiously researching UTH's and thermostats and will definitely getting them for each snake we have and yes for the next one. I just love my babies so much I can not imagine being without them! Thank you so much for your help and kind encouraging words, they really do mean so much to me!!

By the way I see so many signatures with funny numbers in front of the name/type of snakes they have (o.1.1 amel) what does this mean??

Tisha

As for the temps my thermometers are round dials and they are stuck to in side of the tank just above the substrate so that I get the closest temp reading to what the snake feels down on the substrate.

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Unfortunately, those thermometers are notoriously inaccurate. They can be as much as ten degrees wrong in either direction. Your tank could have been much hotter than you thought, especially if you were aiming for a top temp of 110. 120 degrees could kill a Corn and could certainly be the cause of repeated shedding problems.

The best ones are digital thermometers with probes, which should be placed at the hottest part of the tank that your snake can access. In your case, this would be at the hot end, on top of the substrate and immediately below the bulb.

The forced bathes, the vet never explained that I would need to be so careful with the water temp, and it did not click in my brain about the difference in their body temp as compared to theirs. Now I feel so bad and wonder if they have had wicked hot bathes. God I hope not. It is so hard because where I am I only have one herp vet available and I would hope that he would know what he is talking about.

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It's difficult for vets - a herp vet will see a range of reptiles. S/he will probably have a grasp of medical or surgical issues but may not have detailed husbandry knowledge for all of the species that they encounter. If in doubt, you can always come to a message board for advice (hopefully this one!). You might be given a range of opinions, but between us we should be able to spot downright dangerous advice and offer an alternative view.

In the future you are saying to just continue with the XL water bowls I have and if they want to bath they should??

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I've never bathed any of my Corns, so I'd say don't do it at all. My gut feeling is that if you get the temperature and humid hide issues sorted, you won't have a problem in future.

If corns are diurnal then does it not stand to reason that they should need the UVB?? I really am confused on this on issue because I have the vet and several others say they need it for the calcium and them more than those say no they do not.

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Corns are nocturnal or crepuscular (active at dawn and dusk) - they are definitely not diurnal. Because they are most active at times of no or little sunlight, they have never evolved the dependence on UV that you see in other reptiles. UV is vital for, say, Bearded Dragons as they need it to produce vitamin D, which in turn metabolises calcium. Without UV, they will develop MBD. However, Corns can derive and process all of their required vitamin D and calcium directly from their food and they do not need UV for this process.

I think you could be seeing the more general nature of the vet's knowledge, if he is recommending UV for a Corn and telling you that it's diurnal.

So my question to you then is, if I have already purchased the bulbs, and only use them during a general daylight pattern say 8-8 will this stress them out or would it just simulate the wild and with hides they can get a darker spot if they wish. I really like the way they light up the tank to see and I would hate to have wasted $30/bulb. What do you think?

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I haven't used lights with my Corns for years - and never UV - so I can't really offer an opinion. Hopefully someone else with direct experience can give their view. As long as a Corn is kept in a room that has access to natural sunlight, then it will be fine.

I think there are other options for lighting tanks for your own pleasure, that won't stress the snake. Again, I'm hoping someone else can chip in here.

As for the bulb that you already have, could you sell it on via a website like Craigslist? You wouldn't get all of your money back, but you may be able to recover some of it.

I am religiously researching UTH's and thermostats and will definitely getting them for each snake we have and yes for the next one. I just love my babies so much I can not imagine being without them! Thank you so much for your help and kind encouraging words, they really do mean so much to me!!

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I'm so pleased. A keeper like you - caring, willing to take advice and do their own research - would have been a loss to the Corn Snake community.

By the way I see so many signatures with funny numbers in front of the name/type of snakes they have (o.1.1 amel) what does this mean??

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This describes the sexes of the various snakes - male.female.unknown. In your example, this would be no males, one female, one of unknown sex.