Help with the Ultra gene

My first clutch hatched this week. I was expecting something totally different than what I got. I believe a few of the clutch are Ultramels. Is there an easy way to Id the ultra gene? I understand how the gene works. I would like to label the snake properly and I am not sure how to id the gene.

I would like people who have worked with the the gene to reply. No offence to anyone but reading about it and actually dealing with it are two totally different things.

Mom was assumed to be an Amber unkown hets.
Dad was sold as a hypo het bloodred.

Mom

Dad

Eggs

Babies! 6 normals, 4 anery, 1 snow, 3 in question, 1 is still in the egg appears to be a ghost..

Critters in question??? The eyes are red like an amel, but they have a light border around the saddles(like a hypo). I have hatched hypos before and they look nothing like these...



If indeed the offspring are ultra then I figure the Mom is actually a caramel het anery ultramel or a goldust het anery(but I got a snow uggg). The dad is a hypo het amel, anery (ph blood, only because I haven't proved it).

Any help will be most appreciated....

Any help with the parents genetics might help too...

Buzzard, the dad almost looks ultramel to me, but I need new glasses. Mom could be too, but I 'm thinking not ultramel (golddust), maybe homo ultra if anything. She looks like an amber to me.
Red pupils with not albino irises is more or less telltale ultramel. A homo ultra would not ordinarily have red pupils. As far as I have observed.

But most major breeders sell, (and I have many snakes from them, because I like the gene...some definitely ultramels, and some labelled 'ultra or ultramels'), if there is any doubt as "ultra / ultramel...needs breeding trials to prove which". Then you are covered.

The hatchling in the 5th pic down from the top looks ultramel to me.

here are a couple pics of my ultramel female from VMS.
I hope they help some. One of her when young, a 2 year old and an eye shot.

not going to say i have direct experience...i had a clutch last year with similar issues...very small clutch, but were they hypos and ghosts or ultramels and ultramel aneries? still don't know. but if mom's an amber and dad's a hypo, all of the babies would be homo hypo, which they obviously aren't. nice rainbow clutch surprise when you were expecting normals! will be interesting to see what the experts have to say about your hatchlings.

cobained said:

not going to say i have direct experience...i had a clutch last year with similar issues...very small clutch, but were they hypos and ghosts or ultramels and ultramel aneries? still don't know. but if mom's an amber and dad's a hypo, all of the babies would be homo hypo, which they obviously aren't. nice rainbow clutch surprise when you were expecting normals! will be interesting to see what the experts have to say about your hatchlings.

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Your right cobained. I corrected the other thread. They should all be hypos or ghost.

Since they are not, I went back and did some more figuring. If my hypo is actually ultra/ultramel then the outcome of the clutch is pretty much what I've got. Vetusvates you are more than likely correct the male is ultra/ultramel. I have also put him with a snow that is possible het bloodred. That breeding should prove him out if I get some ultramels.

Great clutch! Do you realize the possibilities of breeding that snow to one of the ultramels and all of their combined hets? That would throw some crazy combos not the least of which would be citrine, gold dust, butter, and xanthic snows! That's without the possible het bloodred. I'm jealous of that grab bag in 3 years

I guess both parents would be het anery and the amber would be het amel to get that clutch. It would even sweeten the pot to find out that one was actually het bloodred also.

Would the ultramel then also have to be het hypo since you believe there is a ghost? Oh the crazy genetics...lol

sab49 said:

Would the ultramel then also have to be het hypo since you believe there is a ghost? Oh the crazy genetics...lol

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The last one just came out it is a regular looking anery. But I agree crazy gentics.

Buzzard said:

Your right cobained. I corrected the other thread. They should all be hypos or ghost.

Since they are not, I went back and did some more figuring. If my hypo is actually ultra/ultramel then the outcome of the clutch is pretty much what I've got. Vetusvates you are more than likely correct the male is ultra/ultramel. I have also put him with a snow that is possible het bloodred. That breeding should prove him out if I get some ultramels.

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My best guess as well is that dad is an ultramel. if he were straight ultra, you wouldn't get a snow baby (unless ultra aneries look like snows, and mom is het ultra as well...i have no clue what ultra aneries look like!).

I seen three ultramels in that clutch...

Both are het amel and anery to boot.. Percentage might be of a little bit, but you have ultra genetics in there...

There is ultras, ultramels and possibly and ultra anery in this clutch.. Both parents were ultramels I believe..

I have minimal experience with the ultra gene having only hatched out golddusts and one ultra caramel/golddust. I have also owned a couple of ultramel hatchlings for a brief time. But you asked for my opinion and I will give it to you based more on my experience with the hypo gene.

First, the mother does not look like an amber to me. She is much too red in the saddles, IMO, for her to be homozygous caramel. If there is ultra in the mix, I would be more apt to say it was her, assuming her to be an ultramel het caramel that just shows the extra yellow seen in some het caramels. And since you say you are assuming she is an amber with unkown hets, her genetics apparently have been in question all along.

Since the father was sold as a hypo het bloodred, I would say that his genetics are most likely accurate.

The babies in question look like regular hypos and if it was my clutch from assumed parents carrying the hypo gene, I would not hesitate to call them hypos. Hypos can regularly have ruby pupils. And trust me, from experience, hypo hatchlings can vary quite a bit.

Now, the issue with getting normals. Yes, ultra can be the culprit in this clutch. But then, we can go back to the mother. She may not be homozygous hypo or ultra or ultramel. She may simply be a light normal het hypo caramel.

To demonstrate how confusing this can all be, here are some photos. There are 4 hypos and one normal. Which one is the normal?

My best guess is the 3rd one. Without knowing the background of the snakes genetics. My issue is if they are hypos how do I explain the snow but no ghosts. Its really been bugging me. I just wanna label these right when I am ready to find them homes.

Buzzard said:

My best guess is the 3rd one. Without knowing the background of the snakes genetics. My issue is if they are hypos how do I explain the snow but no ghosts. Its really been bugging me. I just wanna label these right when I am ready to find them homes.

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ou should have figured it was a trick question. The 3rd one posted is actually a hypo. The clutch threw me...a ghost motley X amber producing 100% like the one pictured. But as they grew up, you could see the lightening of the saddle bands and belly checks. The normal is actually the 4th one pictured. Hence some of the confusion in identification without knowing the actual genetics.

Wait until your other clutch hatches to see what exactly the male is. Having hidden hets of amel and anery is not completely uncommon. Also, was the female bred last year, and if so, to what? Retained sperm could also explain some variance in the results. Testing the mother in the next few years for other genes is recommended to help determine her exact genetics. Personally, pairing her with a butter of some sort would be ideal as that would test for homozygous caramel, amel, anery and ultra.

Below is the same snake as shown in the 3rd photo, but about a year later.

I figured it was a trick question. But honestly that one looked normal. I am waiting for the males next clutch, she should lay in the next few weeks and she is a snow, and was proved to have no hypo last season when she was bred to a ghost. I am already working on a plan for the mom next season. She literally just laid 10 more perfect looking eggs this morning.

Maybe mom is an ultra or ultramel het caramel? I have not seen so much redness in a an amber.

edit; just read the other posts, and saw somebody else already popped out that idea

So I should test her out with a caramel het amel? Does that sound right? Any suggestions?

I am sure that your male with the snow will provide you the answers you want..

TandJ said:

I am sure that your male with the snow will provide you the answers you want..

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I hope so.


Thank you. Everyone. This post has helped me so much.

Susan thank you for your thoughts. It has lead me to think of so many different scenarios.