breeding siblings

I'm new to breeding and wondering if siblings can be bred with each other when big enough, also can the baby's be bred with the mother ?

Similar to humans, you shouldn't breed within the same family. If there are any negative traits they will become worse if they share the same DNA that causes the defects. I don't know how far out of the immediate family you should go, someone else will chime in on that, I'm sure.

Thanks for the reply, like I said I'm new to this but am very keen to try, so its best to buy different snakes ? Would I not end up with hundreds of snakes ? Or once you have bred them do you sell them on ? Sorry I must sound so stupid!!

If you keep all your babies, you will be overflowing with corns! Did you read my link on the topic I posted in your other thread?

I had a quick look, I better look at it again, stupid question! Is this site a us site or for everyone?

Anyone can use it, and there are some great tips on the stickies at the top of each topic. Also get a few books on corn snakes, two of the best were written by esteemed members here, Kathy Love and Don Soderberg. Definitely read them before you start breeding.

Yes, this is an international site, although probably the majority who use it are American.

It's actually a fairly common practice to breed sibling to sibling or child to parent. That's why you'll often see people advertise their baby snakes for sale in "pairs" or "trios". Snakes don't seem to be as affected by closely-related breedings as mammals do, but you will at some point want to outcross.

You should never consider breeding siblings.
Not only could the corns get horrible health issues but usually breeders breed to sell them to other breeders. Doing so infects the gene pool and not only that creates more health issues but makes it so that future generation from the siblings will have some sort of problem.

heyymaddiee said:

You should never consider breeding siblings.
Not only could the corns get horrible health issues but usually breeders breed to sell them to other breeders. Doing so infects the gene pool and not only that creates more health issues but makes it so that future generation from the siblings will have some sort of problem.

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This is quite exaggerated.

It is safe to breed siblings together, the general rule that seems most common among the breeders I have talked to, is no more than three generations of breeding siblings, before it's recommended to outcross (breed unrelated back in).
There is also line breeding, which is taking a baby and pairing it back to one of it's parents or grandparents.
There is a certain amount of line breeding that goes into mammals, cats and dogs, etc., to obtain a desired trait.

I'll use the Granite IJ as an example. When the gene was discovered, they paired siblings to each other for the fastest way to make more Granites. There have been SEVERAL generations of Granite line IJ's that have been bred together, and they are now seeing issues in the babies (kinks, D.I.E., etc). It is one of my main projects, and I am focused on outcrossing my pairings. Most of the IJ's I have purchased for these projects are also from outcrossed lines, for this purpose.

If you're concerned about it, talk to the breeder about how many generations they have used in the project, or find the genetics you are looking for from separate sources. A couple generations of sibling pairings is not going to hurt them.

As far as I'm concerned the only good reason to do it is to isolate a rare and desirable recessive trait, and it is a good reason. I agree with MysticExotics' comments about breeding responsibly and outcrossing.

The topic is taboo, unless you know what their traits are. If you dont I wouldint do it. Thats my opinion and Im sticking to it.

Rigby & Marcy said:

As far as I'm concerned the only good reason to do it is to isolate a rare and desirable recessive trait, and it is a good reason. I agree with MysticExotics' comments about breeding responsibly and outcrossing.

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Many times, a clutch will have three, or four hets, and pairing siblings to get those genes in the next generations of babies is pretty common.

heyymaddiee said:

The topic is taboo, unless you know what their traits are. If you dont I wouldint do it. Thats my opinion and Im sticking to it.

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How long have you been breeding?
Most breeders know that breeding reptiles is not the same as mammals, in the fact inbreeding and line breeding is more acceptable, to a certain extent.
It's fine for you to hold your opinion, that is your right, but posting incorrect information based on what you think, doesn't help anyone.

heyymaddiee said:

The topic is taboo, unless you know what their traits are. If you dont I wouldint do it. Thats my opinion and Im sticking to it.

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Taboo? It's almost an industry standard, which would be kind of the opposite.

Need to replicate a new gene? Inbreed.

Need to advance that project quickly? Inbreed?

Recreating desirable traits? Inbreed/linebreed.

heyymaddiee said:

The topic is taboo, unless you know what their traits are. If you dont I wouldint do it. Thats my opinion and Im sticking to it.

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I don't think I'd call it taboo when it happens more in dogs and cats than snakes, as far as I know. When the first pied retics were produced it was from babies bred back to the original sire. The rule of thumb I've heard is no more than three generations as someone said earlier. If you want to quickly produce a phenotype or replicate the same one then a sibling to sibling or babie to parent breeding done once isn't going to hurt anything. A perfect example is spider ball pythons and the infamous wobble. I've seen snakes with super bad wobbles produce babies that don't wobble, while on the same note they CAN produce a worse wobble. If the babies or parents have an issue don't breed them back, or maybe at all, it's really that simple.

Sent from my snake room

Artemisace said:

I don't think I'd call it taboo when it happens more in dogs and cats than snakes, as far as I know. When the first pied retics were produced it was from babies bred back to the original sire. The rule of thumb I've heard is no more than three generations as someone said earlier. If you want to quickly produce a phenotype or replicate the same one then a sibling to sibling or babie to parent breeding done once isn't going to hurt anything. A perfect example is spider ball pythons and the infamous wobble. I've seen snakes with super bad wobbles produce babies that don't wobble, while on the same note they CAN produce a worse wobble. If the babies or parents have an issue don't breed them back, or maybe at all, it's really that simple.

Sent from my snake room

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No, it is way more common in snakes than mammals. It's failry common for people to buy a 1.1 pair, to be bred down the road, to get the desired genes involved.
The 1.1 pairing is more common that pairing an offspring back to a parent or grandparent.

If you know the lineage of the snakes you are getting, this usually does not pose a problem in your breeding plans.
The problems arise when someone buys a 1.1 pair, breeds them, then others buy 1.1 from that pairing, and so forth.
I am pairing a male with a half sister of his (older generation) but I know there are no other related links in this pairing.
I will alos be pairing a daughter to her sire, when she is big enough. Again, no other related links in that pairing.

The wobble in the spider gene has nothing to do with inbreeding or line breeding. It is tied to the Spider gene, period, no matter how much you outcross, the gene is still there. The same holds true with the Jag gene in Carpet Pythons. You cannot breed it out.

MysticExotics said:

No, it is way more common in snakes than mammals. It's failry common for people to buy a 1.1 pair, to be bred down the road, to get the desired genes involved.
The 1.1 pairing is more common that pairing an offspring back to a parent or grandparent.

If you know the lineage of the snakes you are getting, this usually does not pose a problem in your breeding plans.
The problems arise when someone buys a 1.1 pair, breeds them, then others buy 1.1 from that pairing, and so forth.
I am pairing a male with a half sister of his (older generation) but I know there are no other related links in this pairing.
I will alos be pairing a daughter to her sire, when she is big enough. Again, no other related links in that pairing.

The wobble in the spider gene has nothing to do with inbreeding or line breeding. It is tied to the Spider gene, period, no matter how much you outcross, the gene is still there. The same holds true with the Jag gene in Carpet Pythons. You cannot breed it out.

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My bad for the comparison, it was the first thing that was genetic that came to mind. I do agree though that it should be done as little as possible.

Sent from my snake room

I wonder how many people who buy a pair of corns at a reptile show have any idea how many times the animals they are buying have been inbred? Few, I'd guess. People buy 1.1 and grow them out, and usually breed them. Then put them on a table and the process repeats. I'd wager it takes a few generations before that becomes a problem, but most buyers aren't starting with unrelated stock to begin with.

Chip said:

I wonder how many people who buy a pair of corns at a reptile show have any idea how many times the animals they are buying have been inbred? Few, I'd guess. People buy 1.1 and grow them out, and usually breed them. Then put them on a table and the process repeats. I'd wager it takes a few generations before that becomes a problem, but most buyers aren't starting with unrelated stock to begin with.

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The reason why I asked is because I only have the one female snake at the moment and thought it would be a way of building up stock.

Well, all your stock will be related, for what it's worth.

Chip said:

Well, all your stock will be related, for what it's worth.

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Thanks for your help.