How many own Hybrids or intergrades?

Here is a pic of an Emoryi x Miami that I have colors are alot like dad.

I used to have a kisatchie corn, but he turned out to be a problem feeder and wound up dying. (Not to mention, depending on who you talk to, you'll hear different things about whether a kisatchie is or is not an integrade.)

I don't much care for creamsicles, but that's a factor of appearance and not ancestry.

As for hybrids, I don't own any though I do intend to try to produce jungle corns this coming spring (joint project with Serpwidgets), and have intentions of breeding cornXyellow rat hybrids several years down the road. (I've some yellow rats on order from Dwight, yay!)

I have a pair of frosted creamsicles left.....and that is basically the only pair of hybirds that I will have.....I don't think that I'll be getting anymore creams into my collection...

and these creams will NOT be bred to my corn snakes for sure...so I will not have any hybrids in my corn collection (even though those creams are in someway considered as corns...I don't and will not list them as corn snakes....)

I must say I am saddened by your post Simon.If you do not like your snakes maybe you should sell,or give them to someone who does.I do understand the mentality behind the sentiment,but I do not agree with it.A pet wether a hybrid, an intergrade or a "pure" bred is still a pet,never meant to be released into the wild.If a hybrid or intergrade is represented as that when bred or sold and the buyer understands what this means there should be no problems.I am not going to change your mind and that is fine with me.Personally I like hybrids and see cross breeding as a natural step in herpetoculture after all they are pets ,Bred to please the human eye,not to better any species.If humans were really worried about snakes and their propogation (in the wild) then there would be alot less new housing developments being built,as well as more animal friendly streets and highways.

i've been collecting up my specimens for next year. i plan on crossing several for traits i like. i actually only have two corns right now a male normal het for snow(amel, anery) and a female snow. the female is just needed to start the male for the other snakes i have. i see nothing wrong with it as long as the young are not released.

abell82 said:

I must say I am saddened by your post Simon.If you do not like your snakes maybe you should sell,or give them to someone who does.I do understand the mentality behind the sentiment,but I do not agree with it.A pet wether a hybrid, an intergrade or a "pure" bred is still a pet,never meant to be released into the wild.If a hybrid or intergrade is represented as that when bred or sold and the buyer understands what this means there should be no problems.I am not going to change your mind and that is fine with me.Personally I like hybrids and see cross breeding as a natural step in herpetoculture after all they are pets ,Bred to please the human eye,not to better any species.If humans were really worried about snakes and their propogation (in the wild) then there would be alot less new housing developments being built,as well as more animal friendly streets and highways.

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Umm.. did I miss something?

Where did Simon say he did not like his snakes?

Which sentiment aren't you agreeing with? The one about him not wanting to get more creamsicles? Or the one about him not breeding them to his corns? Or the one about him PERSONALLY having the OPINION (to which everybody is entitled) that HE doesn't list them as corns?

I believe if an animal is being kept and not being bred, and he's not getting any more... one would assume that was a pet. Where did Simon say he was releasing ANYTHING into the wild?

Where did Simon say that it was necessarily a bad thing to produce hybrids and inters?

Thanks Axe. I wouldn't of read this if it wasn't for you.

I do love all my animals. It's just that I think that breeding hybrids isn't too right. I never said that I don't like them or anything like that.

If I don't like them, then I wouldn't be keeping any myself. I mean I think that they are great looking and they are considered to be part of my pet and family. I just said that the process of making these super nice looking animals isn't right. I wouldn't be doing it myself.

"see cross breeding as a natural step in herpetoculture after all they are pets ,Bred to please the human eye,not to better any species.If humans were really worried about snakes and their propogation (in the wild) then there would be alot less new housing developments being built,as well as more animal friendly streets and highways."

I agree half of this statement and don't agree with the other half. What I don't agree in is what you said about "see cross breeding as a natural step in herpetoculture after all they are pets ,Bred to please the human eye,not to better any species." I do not think that the hybrids would occure that much in the wild. What we are doing right now is totally speeding up the hybrid process. Maybe in the wild this might occure once in a while, but what we are doing right now is making it happen like an everyday normal procedure. I mean if no one was to stand on a point like mine then sooner or later, there would not be any 'pure' corns. So we have basically wiped out a 'pure' speicies.

Now, "Bred to please the human eye, not to better any species." This is correct, but yet I do not like. Yes I do agree that all of us human being right here on this plant is greedy and would only want to do what we think is better for us and doesn't care about the surroundings. But it's a bit too selfish. Why not keep a species pure and at the same time bred them to please our eyes. This is why I don't agree with hybrids. There are maybe many other morphs that can pop up even with 'pure' corns. Having this in mind, we can try to breed these and yet try and please our eyes. MAYBE one day when all of us are 100% sure that there are no more genes out there that can produce any other morphs THEN we should think into hybrids.

"If humans were really worried about snakes and their propogation (in the wild) then there would be alot less new housing developments being built,as well as more animal friendly streets and highways." This statement is so true....cause we people are just way too selfish.....this is of course including myself.

Abell82, I am not saying who is right or who is wrong right here. I am just trying to tell you MY POINT OF VIEW. I am not saying that I willl release them, I don't love them, or anything like that..... and not trying to tell you what is right and what is wrong. Cause I do agree that these are beautiful animals. Just trying to tell you what I think.

Hope you are not offened or anything.

I am far from offended,but I too appologize, as my post that everyone is quoting, was not meant to be quite as harsh as I think it may actually be.I was not trying to offend anyone but it does not seem that is possible as the words hybrid and offend(offensive,offended,...etc)seem to go hand in hand.
I do not want everyone to like hybrids nor do I want everyone to like the same snakes I do(makes them more expensive for me).I read into your post, however that you think less of your frosted creamsicles because they are/may be hybrids.The point I was trying to get across was that, if it is a hybrid or a pure bred, it can still be a good pet or breeder.

I don't think he meant that he valued his creamsicles any less than his corns... he obviously values both his corns and his creams just as highly as each other.

I think he just doesn't want to let the beauty of one potentially lessen the beauty of another.

Also, if everybody goes head-long into producing all the possible different morphs, hybrids, intergrades and combos possible right now... aside from the fact that 5 years down the road from now, it's gonna be real tough to know exactly what you're getting, it takes all the fun out of it. There's nothing new left to create 4 or 5 years from now

I've nothing against them either... I love the Jungle Corns, but I wouldn't breed a Jungle Corn with another type of regular corn, I'd be breeding jungles with other jungles. Try to improve the fertility and hardiness of that particular hybrid's bloodline before doing anything else with it - given that a lot of hybrids (of all animals, not just snakes) seem to have fertility & sterility problems.

A friend of my dad's was flying a Peregrine/Merlin hybrid for a couple of years. Absolutely GORGEOUS falcon, great hunter, but completely sterile. The initial hybrids were created through artificial insemination though, not the actual physical mating of a Peregrine Falcon & a Merlin.

Yes...
Axe knows exactly what I mean. I do like hybrids, just that I wouldn't produce any myself nor would I breed my corn snakes with any hybrids at all.

One of the hybrids that I wanted to get was the Jungle Corn. They do look very nice, just that I don't want to add more hybrids to my collection because I don't have room....cause I am having so many snakes......
if I have one, I'll love it to death!!! It's kinda like 'either kill me or I am keeping my snakes"

LOL...
good thing that you are not offended by my posts too. I understand your point. I do love all my animals and I treat them like my pet....

I have 39 snakes and only one of them is an intergrade.

It is a cute little creamsicle, and I plan on getting a male to breed with her. I personally do not have a problem with hybrids or intergrades...<b>as long as the breeder is up front about the genetics</b>! I do have a problem when people sell a snake under false pretenses.

I used to have a gopher corn, but he turned out to be QUITE aggressive. I took him back to the seller...because I was told he was very tame.

I also like junglecorns. I think they are really cool looking. I have actually considered breeding my cal kings to my corns, but haven't decided for sure if I am going to.

AHHHH Can I please get a lesson? ~~~~~~~:~

Can some of you guys please share what the difference is and why? I just thought that a cream was another color and I don't know what a jungle is at all. Is anyone willing to give a little gentic lesson for me with some definitions? HYbrids, intergrades, morphs and cultivars???? Thanks, Sam ~~~~~~~:~

I don't know much...

but I'll try to help! A hybrid is a cross of two animals from a different genus (or maybe family...I'm not sure), i.e. - a king snake and a corn snake (example: a cal king an a corn snake cross is called a jungle corn and it is a hybrid). An intergrade is a cross between two subspecies within the same genus (example: a great plains rat snake and a corn snake cross is a creamsicle...it is an intergrade. One is an elaphe gutatta gutatta and the other is an elaphe gutatta emoryi). I believe morph and cultivars are the same things...referring simply to the color and pattern of a snake.

I think this is correct. If anyone can explain it better, then I'd appreciate it. Also, if my info is wrong, then please correct it!

A hybrid is a cross between two separtate species. An integrade is the result of breeding two different subspecies within the same species.

Creamsicle cornsnakes are hybrids between Elaphe guttata and Elaphe emoryi emoryi. It is important to note that the Great Plains rat snake is currently recognized as a full species, and there are no longer any recognized supspecies of corn.

Jungle corns, which you mentioned, are a hybrid between the corn snake and California kingsnake.

For an example of an integrade, we can look to the greenish rat snake. Greenish rats are the offspring of a black ratsnake (Elaphe o. obsoleta ) and a yellow rat snake (Elaphe o. quadrivittata).

Morph and cultivar mean essentially the same thing. They refer to the color & pattern varieties.

Sam...

...there are many debates about whether creamsicles are hybrids or intergrades. Ken and I simply have different opinions on this matter...as do MANY other people. I think of creamsicles as intergrades and Ken thinks of them as hybrids.

I believe that the Great Plains rat snake's scientific name is: Elaphe gutatta emoryi (not Elaphe emoryi emoryi) and the corn snake's is: Elaphe gutatta gutatta. If you notice, they are both from genus, Elaphe and species, gutatta...which in my opinion means they are both rat snakes...and a creamsicle is an intergrade.

Typically, hybrids are crosses between snakes that don't readily breed together. They have to be "tricked" into breeding because they have different pheramones (sp?). They aren't attracted to each other. Rat snakes and corn snakes will readily breed in the wild and in captivity. They don't have to be tricked into breeding. A corn snake and a king snake, however, won't breed in the wild. The king snake would eat the corn snake! Under controlled circumstances, however, they have been tricked into breeding and thus we have the junglecorn.

No offense intended, Ken! I hope none is taken

No offense taken. There is compelling evidence for both sides of the taxonomy debate.

Currently though, the classification as separate species is more commonly recognized as valid. Of course, this may be subject to change as more data becomes available. Personally, I'd like to see more work done on the relationship of these two snakes.

One thing is for certain though, Elaphe has been somehat neglected & abused from a taxonomical standpoint. For the most past, it's an arbitrary grouping.