Controversial Topic #4: Breeding Size/Age (Females)

Well, we all know the 3year/3foot/300g "rule" for minimum age/length/weight requirements for breeding females. But it's no secret that many keepers play by their own "rules" when determining if a female is ready.

To register my opinion on this: I have a decent number of '05 females that will meet the length/weight requirements before the end of this year. These could be brumated at year's end, and bred next spring. I've gone back and forth on this, particularly in regards to a couple of early '05s that meet the size requirements right now. I've finally decided that none of my '05 females will be bred in '07, and that I will use that year as a "training" period. I'll tweak their feeding schedules next year to see if I can get decent weights (350-425g) and optimal muscle tone before the '07/'08 brumation period.

What is your opinion on this topic?

Good one Dean, I've been waiting for a thread on this. I think that age doesn't really matter but size is more important (or so I've read). I've got a two year old, 410 gram female snow that I'm pending on deciding to breed just because of my new phobia of egg binding. Maybe I'll make up my mind soon :shrugs:

Before I would have said no way, you should wait until they are 3 years and up to weight. But I bred an '04 female this year (370 grams) and she laid 14 beautiful eggs. Her eggs were bigger right after being laid than another clutch of eggs I had been incubating for a month. I did not brumate her, saw a significant gain in size and weight earlier in this year and one day I just looked at her and thought 'when did she get so huge?' I put the male in with her and thought she would not be receptive but she was, so I am glad I did it.
The other female '04's I have are a little smaller, one is just about at the 300 gram mark and one still has a quite a bit of growing to do. I am toying with the idea of putting the bigger one with the new male I am getting (het z) but I might not do it. I'm going to weigh her after his quarantine is over and go from there, & it might be too late in the season by then. I think 300 grams is a good minimum weight but considering how much breeding takes out of them I think a little more weight than that is preferable.
On the flip side I once adopted a snake that had been bred too young and gotten eggbound and never treated and she died, I have seen the horrible consequences of breeding too young. It's just plain cruel to put an undersized snake through this. I feel you should think about the size of the eggs and look at the size, weight, and condition of the snake, IMO it's irresponsible and greedy to breed too young just because you want babies sooner. If you can get a snake up to a decent size in 2 years without powerfeeding it, then I guess it's not so bad - some of them do seem to grow to maturity faster :shrugs:

Cruising breeders' sites I've seen lots of two year old males of medium size as the sire but only seen a handful of two year old females, in fact most of the females are actually around four years old, but that could just be their second year breeding. :shrugs: Mostly from reading other forums, and books, the "three rule" seems to be universal for females, but still have not found a standard for males... It also seems only the corn keepers have an established "rule" as I've yet to see one for kings or milks, but that could just be because they all come in different sizes. Corns pretty much all reach the same size, so a standard could be determined as "optimal" for the least amount of problems.... It would be interesting to hear from someone other than the "Oooops my cohab female is gravid" people, who have actually had success breeding large females under three years old....

Personally, I don't really put as much emphasis on age, as compared to weight/length/body tone.

So long as they're at least: 2 years old, 300g+, 3' or more long and have good muscle tone, I'd say they're good to go. But that's my own personal guidelines.

But as it would happen, most of my females don't reach that body shape in 2 years, anyway. It's more like 3-4 years. None of my snakes are like Dean's at that age, none.

Some females I might not even breed even if they fell under the criteria based on my gut feeling about their overall readiness.

My flabbier females seem to take longer laying and lay smaller eggs compared to those that are in better physical shape.

My limited anecdotal evidence:

- (age unknown) Motley female: Hecate

- Has bred at varying pre-breeding weights: 350-600g, and done well at any weight thus far.

- Rebounds quickly and generally double clutches regardless of breeding a second time.

- She's always had good muscle tone. She took this year off to rebuild her reserves. She laid her little heart out last year and deserves a break.


- 2003 Amel. Motley female: June

- 340g pre-breeding weight, dropped to 250g after laying

- First year breeding in 2006. Thankfully she seems to be rebounding on regular feedings.

- No second clutch planned/bred for, and she seems to be cooperating with that.


- 2002 Bloodred female: Garnet

- 250g pre-breeding weight, dropped to 160g after laying

- I was assured she was near that weight in years past when bred and did ok, when I bought her. She plateaued at the 250g weight here, hence why I went ahead and bred her. She is a smaller bodied snake than I've ever dealt with, but I've not had much real world experience with "adult" Bloodred body size/weights.

- She was literally deflated after laying 13 eggs and has been having issues keeping her meals down since laying.

- No second clutch planned/bred for, lets hope she cooperates.


- 1997 Snow female: Freyja

- Pre-breeding weight of 380g for second clutch, dropped down to 160g after second clutch.

- Its just too bad she had to do some weird timing thing on me this year and lay in February fresh out of brumation. Eggs dried up before I discovered them.

- Second clutch planned and bred for. Second clutch of 10; 2 remaining live eggs are due any day now. (Heeeere pippie, pippie, pippie...)


- 2001 Ghost Motley female: Echo

- Pre-breeding weight of 470g and she too did splendidly, all 19 big healthy eggs. Dropped down to 305g after laying.

- Second clutch not planned/bred for, but she is due to lay one next week when the first clutch is due to hatch.


- 2004 Okeetee female: Caldera

- Weighed in at 340g pre-breeding.

- She was big and husky when I got her, and she put on weight rapidly when switched to rat pups.

- She laid 12 good eggs and looks as though she lost very little weight, and is rebounding fast after laying.

- No second clutch planned/bred for.


As for males, I've tried males that were under 200g and most were terrified of the females and did no breeding. The larger males seem to know what they're doing and don't take 'no' for an answer. The fertility rates seem to be better in males that were at least 3 years old, as well.

My experience with younger but heavier snakes:

I bred Karma ( my normal ) last year. She was bred in April 05, laid May 05, hatchlings in July. She turned 2 last July. She weighed close to 500grams. And was over 3ft.

She gave me 21 perfect eggs, resulting in 21 babies.
I have a couple other cases like this but not the time to post em all.

I believe, that size is the major factor in breeding, not age. JMO

I no longer pay much attention to weight. I look at length, muscle tone, and also take in to consideration the size of the animal's adult parents whenever possible. I used to abide by the 3 years/300 gram/3 feet rule, but honestly I lost too many females that way. IMO it's a lazy cop out for really knowing your snakes.
I bred some 2 year old females under 300 grams this year, I also skipped some 2 and 3 year old females that were well over 300 grams. This year was the first year I bred such small females and it is also the first year I have not lost a female to egg binding. I'm also beginning to believe that too much checking on gravid females causes more egg binding that breeding small females. I consider this years success and I think part of it is due to me knowing my animals and gaining an "eye" for what a fit female looks like, part of it is that I'm too busy to pester females due to lay, and maybe part of it is luck.
To put it in perspective, think about humans. What age is ideal for girls to have babies, looking at just the physical aspect of it all? Would you use a height or weight requirement then? Some girls could start very thin but do much better than girls that are very heavy. Some could do great in their late teens, some would do better waiting until they are much older. It has a lot to do with what shape you are in, how quickly you mature, family background, etc. In short, there is no "right" answer, it all depends on other factors.
My collection has reached a point where most of my breeding stock were bred by myself. This gives me the unique opportunity to be very familiar with my lines. I have some fully grown adult females that at their largest top out at 300 grams. If I pull one of their daughters out of brumation at age 2 and they look great and weigh in around 250, I'll go ahead and feed them up to breed that season.
I've also switched to bigger meals less often when I am raising up hatchlings and yearlings. I won't feed any more than once a week and I skip a feeding at least once every other month and sometimes every month depending on my schedule. This has not really effected growth, but I see a lot less fat females now and a lot more muscle tone.
Yes, in the wild they can eat some outrageously large meals, but they don't appear like magic right in front of their burrow as soon as they finish digesting the last. I think it's good to see a corn out actually looking for food for a few days before plopping meal after meal in front of them so that they are always in the corner, curled up digesting.

I agree with you 100% Carol!!! I bred a female this year who "looked ready" but was not at "the size" and I bred her anyway. She gave me 14 gorgeous eggs.

On the other hand my gargantuan female gave me double but some of them did not look nearly as good.

In the wild they will breed when they can... now when they are ready... now I know all about muscle tone etc but to say that there is a hard and fast rule is absurd. I teach high school... those juvies have some of the easiest deliveries ever!!! Made my wife jealous as heck!!! (not too bad) So maturity etc. is very tough to say... tone and feel are everything!

I agree 100% with Carol and Emanon. I started swaying to this school of thought this year when I started breeding some of the Kings. Some of them just don't get as long/heavy as Corns, but they will lay similar clutches in both egg size and numbers. You should have seen my MBK female. Just under 300 g. and not very long (not sure of the exact length) but great muscle tone and a healthy appetite. I bred her and she laid 8 HUGE eggs (twice the size of any of my Corn eggs.) She didn't have any problems laying any of the eggs and is in great shape.
I also bought an Amel last year that was gravid when I bought her. Her weight while gravid was about 280 g. but she had good body tone. I worried like crazy, but she laid 10 perfectly healthy eggs with no problems and gained all of her weight back quite quickly.
After the this year, I'm actually more hesitant to breed males that are too small/young because of all of the dissapointments with low fertility rates.

Yeah, I'm in agreement.

My 350 gram anery laid what is turning out to be a better clutch than my 500 gram anery bloodred. The difference was 6 eggs, but there were 2 slugs and a few have gone bad.

I think it's a lot more about muscle tone than a particular weight.

carol said:

Yes, in the wild they can eat some outrageously large meals, but they don't appear like magic right in front of their burrow as soon as they finish digesting the last. I think it's good to see a corn out actually looking for food for a few days before plopping meal after meal in front of them so that they are always in the corner, curled up digesting.

Click to expand...

An excellent point...
I keep just a few corns, the biggest reason being time restraints, but another important one is how much time I can get them out for "stress-cercise" . Just sitting around a plastic tub with dead food magically appearing doesn't give the animal the same life or death exercise in living a wild animal gets. I get every corn I keep out and moving as much as I can when time allows, to get them working those muscles.

I bred a 2 year old this year who is under the 300 gm "plateau". She is an agressive eater, flighty (lol) and in great shape. She clearly ovulated this year and I have no worries she'll do just fine...

I would not do any females under 250 grams if they are 2 year olds. Three year old maybe...but 2 and under I personally do not think they are ready. I had a couple small females ovulate last year that were 2 years old and in the 250 range and I thought I'd try figuring that 'they were ready' as they were showing signs. Big mistake. I lost one after egg laying and the other won't touch stuff bigger than a fuzzy....a year later and still weighs in the 250 and her unbred sisters are 400g! Males I think can handle it close to 200 grams but I haven't had great success with that but I don't think an attempt will compromise the health of a male. In my opinion, I think females can be 'ruined' if they are bred too young...both their future breeding and health will be affected. That's why this year even though I had some 2 year old 250-300g females ovulate I DID NOT put them with a male in the hopes they'll put on even more weight for next year. (And believe you me...this was a HARD decision as these were my sunkissed X anery patternless and my lavender het snow patternless projects and I really wanted to produce/prove out some of these this year! That being said...I just could not sacrifice their health for my gain.)

I agree with everyone who is talking about the muscle tone and think that is a major defining factor. Weight alone I think is not a perfect factor. My more lean and long females often produce better than my fatties. Thus, I would have to conclude that inadvertanly I stick to the 3 year 300gram rule just because it seems to work out...but I do base it on the individual and will fudge a little if I think the snake can handle it.

shed'n my skin said:

new male I am getting (het z)

Click to expand...

:-offtopic So you're the one who took that from me? :grin01:

Thanks for the excellent replies.

I'll echo Roy's "Thanks" to all the experienced breeders and give one to Roy himself.

I'm still at the raising-hatchlings stage, but have given the "when to breed" question some thought. Everyone's comments and shared experience have provided me more to consider. I really appreciate it.

I am a newbie to breeding and had only one female that I thought I could breed this year. She is an 04 and was just over 300g when I bred her. The male was under 150g. Neither was brumated. They produced 21 perfect eggs that hopefully I have not harmed with inconsistent temps. They are due to hatch in the next week or so. She just shed again and I think I may feel a few eggs but her behaviour now is very different from prior to the first clutch. She had dropped down to about 200g and is thankfully back up to over 300g again. I think it is all just beginners luck and I hope it continues on to healthy eating hatchlings.


Because my collection is small and I have kids whose friends all want to see the snakes my snakes get a fair bit of exercise! Maybe this helps. I have also tried to give her plenty of room to cruise around in but it is definitely time for a larger enclosure!

Next year I will have a few 05 females that will be over 300g and if they seem as robust then as they do now I will breed them.

Jo

I'll have to agree with most of what has already been said. I take age, weight and condition into consideration for all of my snakes. I was breeding for quite a few years before I even had a scale, and I was totally surprised at the weights of many of my long-time breeding adults. I had only a few females that were over 300 grams pre-breeding weight! Many barely made it to 270 grams! And yet, they had all been producing nice clutches, often double clutching, for years. Yes, my average clutch size was around 10-12 eggs, but I am happy with that. I now try for larger females, but I still have some younger females that are on the small side. But if they are at least 4 years old and look good, I'm not concerned if they only weigh 270 grams.

As for the males, I brumated an '03 that was only 120 grams. He bred 3 females successfully and I've tried him on a 4th. The first female produced 2 fertile clutches without having to be re-bred (OK...7 fertile and 6 slugs in the 2nd clutch...but that ain't bad!). I also tried an unbrumated male that was 30 grams larger, but a year younger, and he just hid from the females. I'm not sure if the key to success was in brumating the male or the extra year in age...or both. I'm not sure if I want to experiment by brumating a younger, smaller male to see if he will breed successfully. I would hate to lose the opportunity to let a smaller male grow during those couple of months if he doesn't breed successfully. Guess it may have to depend upon what his weight actually is at the time...yeah, a 200 gram 2 yr old golddust...BRUMATE and BREED!

Slightly off topic, but I am surprised to hear so many adults weigh just around 300 grams..... I seem to bump into heavier ones a lot; my okeete lady weighed around 500 grams pre-breeding, with very good muscle tone. She produced 17 eggs, 14 fertilized. My emoryi weighs around 600 grams and is amazingly strong in her body.... but emoryi is slightly different, I know....

My miami was fat (1163 grams at 120 cm) when I got him, but now he measures 140 cm (4 feet and 3 inch) and weighs 1004 grams. He does not look or feel fat, he is just a big snake.

My anery male was small in my opinion (3 feet and 3 inch), but stil weighed 375...

At the other hand, the gravid females I see around here look huge and fat, while I hardly saw anything girthwise when my okeetee was gravid.... so apparently your snakes seem huge when gravid cause they are smaller bodied? :grin01:

You can ride a bicycle with another person standing on the front axle and holding on to the handle bars, but you wouldn't teach someone to ride by starting out that way.

I don't ever multiply anything by 9. Instead I do 10x-x. And 8x=10x-2x. And 7x= (10x/2)+2x.

Ok, I'm done with my stupid examples. :grin01:

I think the rule of 3's is a good one for beginners. I think of breeding corns as a learned skill that requires practice and experience. Like many other similar things, there are rules that beginners go by, until they become proficient enough to use their own judgement as to where to break the rules, or to just throw out the rules and make indicidual calls on each situation.

Once one has gained the experience to be able to judge the finer points for themselves, then the 3 years/3 ft/300 grams thing is not such a big deal. But in the lack of any experience, I think it is a better idea to advise them to use that as a guideline, rather than letting them convince themselves it's perfectly safe because everybody else does it.

Serpwidgets said:

You can ride a bicycle with another person standing on the front axle and holding on to the handle bars, but you wouldn't teach someone to ride by starting out that way.

I don't ever multiply anything by 9. Instead I do 10x-x. And 8x=10x-2x. And 7x= (10x/2)+2x.

Ok, I'm done with my stupid examples. :grin01:

I think the rule of 3's is a good one for beginners. I think of breeding corns as a learned skill that requires practice and experience. Like many other similar things, there are rules that beginners go by, until they become proficient enough to use their own judgement as to where to break the rules, or to just throw out the rules and make indicidual calls on each situation.

Once one has gained the experience to be able to judge the finer points for themselves, then the 3 years/3 ft/300 grams thing is not such a big deal. But in the lack of any experience, I think it is a better idea to advise them to use that as a guideline, rather than letting them convince themselves it's perfectly safe because everybody else does it.

Click to expand...

I agree and admit I was worried that some of the things I said could be taken out of context by beginners. However, the problem with the rule is it needs to include 3 years/300 grams/3 feet AND NOT FAT!
Many animals that meet the "three 3's" I would consider unsafe to breed. :shrugs:

Excellent replies, it's been very informative and a great read. Most of mine are '05's and as you've probably noticed from all the pics, :grin01: they get to go outside and climb around for around half an hour, (at least), a few times a month, in addition to any exercise they get on their own cruising the tubs and vivs. I also only feed once a week like Carol, and don't feed any while they are in blue. I noticed they are in the medium range of other '05's, but they all have great muscle tone and see now that it will probably pay off in the long run, as compared to pounding the food down them. Thanks guys :cheers: