R.I. Discusion.. Whats your experience?

I've been wondering long and hard over the last couple of weeks, concerning RI's...
We see RI's occur occasionally on the forums, where people are asking advice on what to do.... They all claim to keep their snakes in ideal conditions and I haven't any reason to disbelieve them.....What has got me wondering is....
The snakes that escape and are found weeks or even months later (even in the UK...People come in the shop for us to look them over when found) all seem fine and I've never seen or heard any evidence of an RI.....
Now you would think a snake in the wild would have more chance of getting it than one in a perfect environment would.....
This is where it gets strange.....
After talking with my vet he presented me with his theory.....
Fresh faeces has to dry out.... During this process bacteria aerosol off the offending dump.... Vivs are usually moist-ish with limited air flow and the perfect environment for the bacteria to grow, so he thinks this could be the start of the problem.....
Anyone care to add/agree/disagree......

That sounds plausible to me Mike. I think the enclosed environment we keep our animals could be a breeding place for bacteria. May also protect for the same reason.

I've never had a snake with a RI but I have read a lot about them and hear a lot from others. I have had lizards, chameleons, have RI problems. I think they are more susceptible.

Chameleons have problems with parasites. You treat them and get them cleaned up and two months later they are back. I think it is because they expel the eggs (oocysts) in their facies and then tomorrows lunch (crickets) pick them back up.

OK two months of research and a few experiments and I may have a solution.... It seems that millions of pounds/dollars are spent every year trying to find a way around RI and animals that live in boxes (intensive farming)
To help prevent an RI air flow needs to be increased, especially in rack systems. The way to get the air to flow, holes need to be made in the viv/rub. The holes need to be in the ratio of 4:1...... Drill/burn a hole or two at the bottom of one end of the viv/rub by the heat mat. Then at the opposite end drill/burn 4x as many holes near the top... This ratio of 4:1 will accelerate the air flow and the bacteria that is aerosoled off dessicate... This is the best solution I have found...
Wow I feel like a real scientist....LOL

snakewispera snr said:

OK two months of research and a few experiments and I may have a solution.... It seems that millions of pounds/dollars are spent every year trying to find a way around RI and animals that live in boxes (intensive farming)
To help prevent an RI air flow needs to be increased, especially in rack systems. The way to get the air to flow, holes need to be made in the viv/rub. The holes need to be in the ratio of 4:1...... Drill/burn a hole or two at the bottom of one end of the viv/rub by the heat mat. Then at the opposite end drill/burn 4x as many holes near the top... This ratio of 4:1 will accelerate the air flow and the bacteria that is aerosoled off dessicate... This is the best solution I have found...
Wow I feel like a real scientist....LOL

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I have placed all my carpets into "display" style cages now.. that have the gauge steel screen tops, and then a "breathing strip" at the bottom below the sliding doors, I used to keep them in just large tanks, or exo terras, both of which that only have top ventalation, and i always got alot of whisling or weezing when the breath... but i noticed my male that was in theese display tanks, NEVER did this... curiously i got one more viv, put a whisling female in it... within a WEEK she had stopped doing this... and this goes along with your theory, theres a very large space at the top where air rushes in... and then at the bottom the strip is smaller, forcing some air out, taking with it all the "nasties" that were in the air in the viv... but in a normal tank, fresh air only goes in, in minimal ammounts so to speak..

this is only my observations, but it was worth the money to me to invest in theese cages, just for that one little improvement..

NONE whisle or wheeze anymore..

Poop rarley gets the chance to hit the ground before I am cleaning it out of my vivs and racks. Theres never any condesation build up due to fecal matter in my tubs. I don't understand how people can leave poop in their boxes/vivs for days at a time.

Tula_Montage said:

Poop rarley gets the chance to hit the ground before I am cleaning it out of my vivs and racks. Theres never any condesation build up due to fecal matter in my tubs. I don't understand how people can leave poop in their boxes/vivs for days at a time.

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it could be more then that, lots of moistness could cause it too, stagnant air, there could be alot of reasons and buildups that may cause this.. but the airflow reasoning seems to atleast help from what ive seen so far..

Tula_Montage said:

Poop rarley gets the chance to hit the ground before I am cleaning it out of my vivs and racks. Theres never any condesation build up due to fecal matter in my tubs. I don't understand how people can leave poop in their boxes/vivs for days at a time.

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Also, if you have ALOT of snakes, theres usually a set cleaning day, so.. if you clean the tub, and the snake deficates that day.. well then its in there till the next week.. everyones situation is different..

RyanR said:

I have placed all my carpets into "display" style cages now.. that have the gauge steel screen tops, and then a "breathing strip" at the bottom below the sliding doors, I used to keep them in just large tanks, or exo terras, both of which that only have top ventalation, and i always got alot of whisling or weezing when the breath... but i noticed my male that was in theese display tanks, NEVER did this... curiously i got one more viv, put a whisling female in it... within a WEEK she had stopped doing this... and this goes along with your theory, theres a very large space at the top where air rushes in... and then at the bottom the strip is smaller, forcing some air out, taking with it all the "nasties" that were in the air in the viv... but in a normal tank, fresh air only goes in, in minimal ammounts so to speak..

this is only my observations, but it was worth the money to me to invest in theese cages, just for that one little improvement..

NONE whisle or wheeze anymore..

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It sounds like air flow is the key to this problem, and your experience goes to prove that a bit more... Nice one Ryan.

Tula_Montage said:

Poop rarley gets the chance to hit the ground before I am cleaning it out of my vivs and racks. Theres never any condesation build up due to fecal matter in my tubs. I don't understand how people can leave poop in their boxes/vivs for days at a time.

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Poop hasn't got to 'hit the ground', the moment it is excreted it begins to aerosol.... After all it was only 12 months ago you had a major RI scare....

snakewispera snr said:

Poop hasn't got to 'hit the ground', the moment it is excreted it begins to aerosol.... After all it was only 12 months ago you had a major RI scare....

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I had a feeling you would have a wee dig and bring that back up

Actually, in Windsor's case it was RI turn Pneumonia within a very short space of time despite being on medical treatment etc etc.

In regards to the poop theory, thats why good ventilation is essential in vivs/rakcs/tubs and within the reptile room.

Tula_Montage said:

I had a feeling you would have a wee dig and bring that back up

Actually, in Windsor's case it was RI turn Pneumonia within a very short space of time despite being on medical treatment etc etc.

In regards to the poop theory, thats why good ventilation is essential in vivs/rakcs/tubs and within the reptile room.

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It wasn't a dig Elle, it was a reminder... Because the way you came across with your answer made me think you hadn't read my post properly....

You cannot be ready 24/7 to pick up dumps, no one can, so the only way forward from that position is to accelerate the air flow.... Without adding an extraction fan, the best way is holes in the ratio 4:1.... Hot air gets out easily so fresh air is dragged in quickly...

snakewispera snr said:

Without adding an extraction fan, the best way is holes in the ratio 4:1.... Hot air gets out easily so fresh air is dragged in quickly...

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My viv is an adapted large fish tank. When I converted it I gave some thought as to airflow. I have not really figured the ratio, but it may be more than 4/1.
Mine is set up with a vented window on the side opposite the heaters, it's also an access for water and feeding. The lids and the back are well ventilated to allow upward air flow from the heaters. This sets up a nice heater powered air flow. I tested it with smoke and it works well (if you test with smoke you have to stay still for a while to see the actual flow). Pretty basic, and I'm sure there are a lot of vivs that work like this:

The ratio of 4:1 is a figure I got from a vet..... A hole 4x smaller than the exhaust (top) hole creates the best air flow apparently..... Like I said they have to be diagonally opposite each other and the bacteria will dessicate quickly. Thus eliminating nasty air which susceptable snakes can become infected from..... Sorry to keep reiterating the point, but it's a drum I plan to keep banging until everyone gets this message...LOL

still a good, informative post.. can't say that for much on the forums theese days.

RyanR said:

still a good, informative post.. can't say that for much on the forums theese days.

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Beginning to agree with you there...... Time for us to pick it up and get it back on course.... If thats possible.....

I think it is interesting, but not mainly because of the RI implications - I rarely ever see RI in a corn. Most of the problems I ever see in corns are related to digestion. But the same holds true for those problems - whatever bacteria, mold, or fungus is floating around the viv, may eventually land in the water bowl, or get on the snake who will crawl into the water bowl, or possibly get onto the food item. Even if fed in a separate container, I don't bathe each snake before feeding, so it can be transferred from snake to food, and ingested.

Another problem is that with my rack system, some boxes fit too tightly, and water can get spilled when pushing or pulling the boxes. That creates more opportunities for microbes to thrive. Increased ventilation would help dry unnoticed spills before bacteria got a chance to multiply. So I can see the relevance of the discussion to digestive problems as well. If the snake has some nice, warm aspen to burrow into, we don't have to keep the whole cage warm and moist. Increased ventilation seems like a great idea, but a little more difficult to achieve in rack systems. I have quite a few holes melted into my boxes, but even more would be better, I think.

Seems like a dry, well ventilated cage (with a humid hide when needed, changing out the moist media frequently), perfect temp gradient, and clean water (possibly with grapefruit seed extract to retard bacterial growth if you can't clean the water bowl every day) could be the keys to managing any infectious disease.

what an interesting conversation, now ive been keeping corns for 14 years and my eldest, Scales at the moment is 11 years old, i have recently experienced an RI just a couple of weeks ago, obviously if they poop in the morning then it dont get cleaned out till late afternoon as i work full time but thats the longest i always clean it out the second i notice it.

well now the story is Scales was eating, shedding, pooping fine, his temps were all correct he has fresh water every other day but one night i was at my sisters and my dad called me to say somethings wrong with him, i came rushing home to hear that my dad found him with his whole body upside down, mouth wide open, i was extremely alarmed to hear this, my dad said he corrected him but after that his whole body looked distended, mouth wide, neck bent backwards and i actually believed he was dying, took him to emergency vagitus within an hour to hear that his breathing and heart sounded ok so we took him home, he seemed somewhat ok through the night, the following morning i was planning to take him to our normal vets vet but before i could he was doing the mouth wide, neck bent distention thing again, got him there they said he looks in an extremely bad way, they kept him in for the day did a trachea wash and x rays, administered antibiotics, got results back and they stated its pneumonia/ borderline septicemia! both are fatal, i was absolutely devastated, thought he was going to die, it had gone way past being just a RI, i completely blamed myself, they were on bark chips but now all of them have been moved to just paper towels, i dont trust any loose substrate now, the good news however is he is a complete and utter fighter he pulled through with lots of tlc, antibiotics and hes doing really well now, he wheezes from time to time but the vet said thats normal hes still recovering but keep an eye on him.
my point is there was absolutely no signs that i saw off, there was no wheezing, head upright, distention, mucus or excess saliva in mouth or nostrils, thing! zilch! then all of a sudden bam! pneumonia/borderline septicemia! so bad, anyways thought id share my first (and hopefully last ever) experience.
thanx for reading.

oopsy, damn silly spell check, LOL, its came up with all sorts of words there, sorry for spelling mistakes in post above then oh and a couple of complete wrong words, lol