Need help~ new puppy VS old dog

Kind of funny to be asking this with the "dog training" threads going on right now. LOL

So here's the case....

Old dog-- I have a 1 1/2 yr old lab, Zoey. She has been a part of the family since she was 9 weeks old. She is totally indoors, except to go potty and even then she is leashed. She's excellent with the kids, protective of the house and us and minds pretty well.

New dog-- Today our new puppy arrived. She is a 4 month old full blood english mastiff. So roughly 40 pounds. She has had absolutely no training at all. Not even a simple command such as "come on". The breeder lived out in the country, pinned the dogs at night, fed them in the morning then let them run free all day. She told me her 3 yr old daughter and her 8 yr old son played with the puppies all the time.

Problem-- When the new dog arrives we keep her outside on a leash, which she has never worn one before. Zoey is then brought our on her leash to "meet" the new pup. Zoey was so excited to see a puppy and of course wanted to smell the newb. Well the puppy wasn't having it. She growled and snipped at Zoey. Zoey backed off with out care and went on her way to potty. 30 minutes later, inside the house, the pup did it again but this time more aggressive than the first. Zoey again backed up and let things be. Some time later Zoey was walking by stopped to look at the pup from about 3 foot away. The pup growled and snarled very loudly then as Zoey walked away the pup came out after her. Then it was on. Zoey had had enough I guess and a fight ensued. I yelled "HEY!" and they both stopped and went to separate places. But this was not a little snipping. This was full fledged fighting.

So what do I do? Is there any thing I can do to ease the new dog in? I'm already going to have a long road trying to train a dog that has never had so much as a single command taught to her. It's understandable that the puppy is probably scared to death in this new home. But I also don't want either dog to get hurt nor my kids if the dogs decide to do it around them. So I want this to be as gentle for both of us as can be. I can see in her face that she is a very smart dog, but I think she is also a stubborn one. Any advice or types would help a lot.

I just wanted to say that English Mastiffs are awesome, great choice.

I hope this doesn't turn into another training debate. Tired of seeing experienced dog people told they are wrong by elitist 21 year olds.

I'm no expert at dog-on-dog interactions, but I have to say that puppies showing aggression as young as 4 months are often showing serious genetic flaws in temperament. When dogs hit sexual maturity, dog on dog aggression is much more common, but until that point, most dogs are entirely dog social and will rarely respond with aggression.

Also, most normal, social adult dogs will give "puppy license" to the youngsters. It's extremely unusual for a 4 month and an adult dog to engage in even a scrap. At most, the puppy gets a mild tell-off, and that's it.

I won't lie - this concerns me.

I think your best bet is to get both dogs evaluated by a professional. Search high and low and don't be afraid to get second opinions. Certifications and degrees are good, but some places give out certs. like candy and some people with degrees have next to no practical experience. Find someone you really trust, who dealt with these types of situations before, and simply ask for an evaluation - they will be able to tell you so much more just from watching the situation.

Personally, I hope the pup was just grumpy and freaked out, and that she settles in just fine.

There's not a quick answer. I would read this: http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

Lots of great general info about all sorts of stuff. Check out other articles on there too.

personally it sounds like the pup is very undersocialized and was simply overwhelmed at the meeting.

Dogs can definetly respond aggressively out of anxiety or fear. I wouldn't read GOBS into this as the dog is in a wierd place, wierd new people, wierd new dog, and probably had the stress of a milllion other things on its head...and its young.

Start utilizing NILIF (google it) and closely supervise them. If there is another issue its perhaps time to hire a behaviorist.

just my .02

ive only seen aggression like that in adult/sub adult dogs. and it was over something like food or human attention/jealousy. a puppy usually will be the one put in its place by the older dog. was this the dominant pup of the litter. it might think it has rule over the world and your dog being older and a calm one will just rather walk away and have a nice day than to be aggressive. i bet if the pup showed aggression toward your kids your dog would step in and put him down. you never get in the way of a dogs young ones or masters. i say give it a few days. if he still acts like this he might be a real dog aggressive dog not worth having around. but it could just be moving stress and being in different place and maybe scared of your dog. and thinking its going to attack him. some puppies only know their own litter, and have never been socialized. so hopefully it works itself out. in the mean time id just start on training and a smack to the snout when he shows aggression with a strict no might help sort him out too. and walks together and bringing them closer. so that when he has fun or gets praised its when hes behaving like a good dog and just being happy.

pwargcm said:

. in the mean time id just start on training and a smack to the snout when he shows aggression with a strict no might help sort him out too. .

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Well so much for no debate...lol

please please don't hit an aggressive dog, you are much more likely to make the situation worse. Especially a puppy who is extremely impressionable...Its is very unlikely to fix aggression...with aggression.

Thanks for the quick replies. It just seemed odd to me that she would be so aggressive as such a young age, especially being a mastiff. They are known for being very gentle and non aggressive dogs.

But as some of you have said, this may be a new move, tired, scared, i'm not sure where I am, kind of behavior. She did travel 3 hours to get here and that was only her second time in a car. ATM my lab is by my side in the kitchen while the puppy is with my oldest son in the next room. The lab keeps going to look at her over the gate and the growling is already getting a bit better from the pup. The puppy is also playing and acting like a puppy should act, got caught chewing a shoe. LOL So maybe this is a good sign. I hope.

Zoey has an established spot in the pack, and the puppy is young and full of piss and vinegar. The puppy is used to being a puppy. Puppies tend to play HARD, and do all sorts of dominance and aggression things on each other. Not to be argumentative, but that's completely normal puppy behavior, and sure as heck not any defect other than being a puppy. The pup tried to do some sort of puppy dominance/aggression thing on Zoey, because he flat doesn't know any better, and Zoey responded with a well-deserved doggy chastisement. I'm sure there was a startling amount of furor over the whole mess.

Here's my take. (Let's see - asbestos skivvies firmly in place - check. Let the flames begin! :eek1 You and your family have to establish yourselves as the undisputed pack leaders. Mentally, mastiffs are like pugs (which I've had, and are toy mastiffs). They tend to have concrete-filled heads, and are extremely pugnacious (great tie-in, no?) Getting their attention is very, very hard. Night and day compared to a Lab.

The dogs are probably going to have to figure it out between themselves, while the puppy is still young enough to be unable to kill the Lab, and with a human there to step in and break things up. When you have them on leashes, don't even let them look at each other unless a human initiates it. Don't let the puppy drag anyone around - be super firm with control on the leash. When they're indoors, don't let anything get started between them. It'll take constant vigilance, and the puppy will still try to be a puppy, and things are guaranteed to get out of hand occasionally. As you did today, separate them and step out. Mastiffs are usually gentle giants, but they need to be taught who is the alpha - and it ain't them.

Thanks Glen. I've never had this issue before so this is a new one to me. Guess I better get out Zoeys old rolled up newspaper and get ready. Funny thing is, I never used that paper on her. I would just smack it on the table and it got her attention real quick. Now all I have to do is say "Don't make me get the paper!" and she heads for her crate. LOL

One more point on corporal punishment (wow, this should really bring the flames out in brigade formation). A canid mother chastises her progeny with a sharp, sudden, snarling snap and nip. A puppy will frequently get knocked on its kiester when Mom has had enough. I'm not going to tell anyone else to smack a dog, but a sharp three-fingered poke, particularly to the top/side of the neck, with a sharp, loud noise (no! or stop! or just a loud short beep!), is an instinctual STOP THAT signal to any dog. Particularly with a puppy, it's the nearest thing we have to a mother dog's correction, and if administered consistently it's extremely effective.

what would be even more effective would be teaching the dog what to do...not what not to do.

The average person doesn't possess the timing to carry out such corrections correctly all of the time.

bekers71 said:

Thanks Glen. I've never had this issue before so this is a new one to me. Guess I better get out Zoeys old rolled up newspaper and get ready. Funny thing is, I never used that paper on her. I would just smack it on the table and it got her attention real quick. Now all I have to do is say "Don't make me get the paper!" and she heads for her crate. LOL

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Using the paper as the mother's muzzle (poke the pup in the side of the neck) is way-wow effective. A smack on the table may be all it takes, too - the sudden noise may break the pup's concentration and bring a halt. That's what you're shooting for - breaking the chain of thought, and redirecting (or quashing) the energy.

Don't chastise Zoey verbally or physically for any altercations between the two. It's Zoey's house (under the humans of course) and as alpha, you need to solidify her position as being dominant over the new pup as well. If Zoey gets chastised by you, the new dog thinks they get the top dog spot, and then you could have two head cases.

Four months isn't that young of a pup either. That's 16 weeks, and according to the current material I'm reading (Wolters), she should be well into a pre-school or kindergarten phase where learning is concerned. If this dog hasn't had any interactions or sensitivity training or training in general, that would put him 8 or 9 weeks behind "schedule" so to speak mentally.

Personally, I'd be concerned (not scared) with a larger breed dog being that aggressive that young and as the newcomer to the home. I'd keep a close eye on it, follow some of the suggestions here (that Leerburg site that Stregone linked had some great stuff that I read through earlier in the week!), and definitely follow Emily's advice as needed.

EDIT - Addition: I just realized the new dog is a female as well. There's something to be said for female-female aggression. That could cause some more difficulties in getting them to play nice. I'd do some reading on that angle as well.

:shrugs:
D80

pwargcm said:

....was this the dominant pup of the litter.

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The breeder informed me that the mom had given birth to 5 pups. Two of them died and one was sold to some one else a while back. That left this girl and one male. The male is still there and was with this girl 100% of the time to roam where ever during the day.

the female/female thing can be done. I own four bitches and I know many people with multiple bitches...its really all about getting compatible personalities and choosing wisely who comes home

Hmmm

If you have a yard maybe let them loose and have at it, kinda keep watch out a window or something but be prepared to break it up if one of the dogs gets hurt.Hope it works out for you!

I would Look up "Nilf" It is somthing good to use with a Puppy like her. She will have to work for EVERYTHING.

Also, Paper is a good thing to try, as long as ure not hitting her with it.. Or a Coffee can filled with Coins.. Shake it..and say NO! Or throw it Towards her.. Not AT her.. to get her from chewing or doing something you don't want.. and redirect to something she can do.. If she is chewing something she isn't surposed to.. Distract her..and use a toy and get her to chew it.. then lots of Praise.

As far as aggression.. For the next cpl days.. if you can keep them seperate. Let her get used to you and the household first. Once she seems to be more comfy.. then intro the dogs again.


Hopefully it all works out for you.

Thanks for starting this thread, Becky. I want to get a second dog, and am concerned about how that is going to go over. (This is Becky's thread, so no need to address me.)
I kept a larger (also neutered) male one weekend with Brutus, and Brutus seemed sad.
I have a male and female Blue Heeler at "home" at the farm, in north Louisiana. The female is the boss.
Will be following the discussions and development of your situation.

vetusvates said:

Thanks for starting this thread, Becky. I want to get a second dog, and am concerned about how that is going to go over. (This is Becky's thread, so no need to address me.)
I kept a larger (also neutered) male one weekend with Brutus, and Brutus seemed sad.
I have a male and female Blue Heeler at "home" at the farm, in north Louisiana. The female is the boss.
Will be following the discussions and development of your situation.

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I know this is Becky's thread so I'll make this quick, but if you are looking to adopt a dog I would be more than happy to look around for you and give you links. I was able to find the perfect dog for my situation, and helped a friend of my mom's find a dog for her elderly clients that matched their situation. I love to just look for dog's and would be more than happy to help you search!!!.