An example of why.....

[Horridus]

I know that many of you are against hybrids and although I have worked with them in the past and have nothing to say about people who choose to do so. I will be the first to point out why some people are so opposed to the practice. This animal is being represented as a "Black and White Cornsnake" It is very clear that this is a hybrid and has some lampropeltis in it. I hope that this is not intentional (I don't believe it is) but herein lies the problem with people purchasing, and unscrupulous dealers selling animals of questionable heritage.

<img src=http://www.olddude.com/images/CB_BlackandWhiteCorn.jpeg>


Black and White Corn - Elaphe Guttata Guttata -
These are great snakes for the young keeper. They are very mellow tempered and love to be handled. They will reach a total length of about 4-5 feet. Even Moms will like this type of snake.
Price: $65.00
Qty Available: 1

 

[Kat]

Perhaps you should contact him and correct him that what he's got there is a jungle corn? I bet if you tell him that jungle corns usually retail for closer to $75, he'll be happy to put the right label on it.

 

[Horridus]

Well....

I would, but to identify the gentics of the animal strictly upon the basis of appearance would be impossible. It is obvious it is not a pure corn and it has characteristics consistant with Jungle Corns it could very well have sinaloan, campbelli, thayeri, Etc. in it.
I have seen 6 way crosses Pyromelana X Greeri X Ruthveni X Alterna X Thayeri X Miami Phase Corn Bred back to corns that produced animals that were identical to 50/50 California King X Cornsnakes (Jungle Corns)! So who knows what the snake really is other than NOT a pure corn....and I don't think ignorance should be rewarded with knowledge of a higher value

 

[Kat]

I'd consider it an incentive to change, but at the very least you ought to correct his ignorance (politely the first time atleast). It's quite possible he may not know what he's doing.

(I ran across a 'major' snake breeder once who thought his hypo corns were ambers and was selling them as such.)

 

[Jr Nimeskern]

Yes some people dont really know what to sell their corns as... I'm not to sure but I have a cornsnake that is a Rosy Rat mix... Ive heard from alot of people that say that the Rosy rat, are now considered Rosy cornsnakes and that they are one... but Im not sure on how to take this... I did purchase a Creamsicle from this pet store and he told me these were pure cornsnakes... but they arent the Creamsicle is a Hybrid... I DO choose to breed hybrids but I will be careful to try to lable the corns I sell as Hybrids and from a Hybrid bloodline... could any of you tell me what you think of the Rosy cornsnake... because I have just purchased from the same petstore... a Hypo Motley with Rosy linege...

 

[Serpwidgets]

I don't think there's any "for sure" on the classification of rosy rats as corns or a separate subspecies, but as I understand it, the current leaning is toward "they are the same species."

I wouldn't consider a "rosy X corn" a hybrid either way. I think the term "hybrid" is being used for crosses from different species and different genuses, with "intergrade" being used for subspecific crosses like creamsicles.

(edit)
Oh, and I do consider it absurd to take a microscope to taxonomy in order to determine if certain crosses are worthy of some special label. If a cornXrosy cross "breeds true" with corns, rosies, and other cornXrosy crosses, as much as anything else in the corn "subspecies" does, then I really don't see how this is any different than crossing a huge okeetee with a tiny, dull-colored, lizard-eating corn. Either way you are creating something that has traits which are reasonably expected when you describe cornsnakes and will reproduce as reliably as in any other corn X corn cross... taxonomic labels don't really have any relevance at that point, and IMO most people in the hobby take taxonomy to be an exact science... it's not.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I absolutely agree with Serpwidgets on this point. I am a little tired of the corn purists throwing fits everytime someone admits to having creamsicles in their collection.

Personally, I like creamsicles, but I don't produce them anymore. Too many people are just absolutely against the idea of intergrades, and there are those who simply will not buy any animal from you if you have intergrades in your collection.

If you don't want to breed intergrades, that's fine. But I actually had someone tell me all kinds of things about Don S. and Kathy L. simply because they both breed creamsicles to one extent or another.

Taxonomy is not an exact science, and it is subject to the changes of the CURRENT collective decisions of the scientific community. What is today considered an intergrade may be considered a pure corn tomorrow. Hybrids are the products of crossing different species (lampropeltisXguttata), but intergrades are just the crossing of subspecies, and are not the bane of corn-dom that everyone makes them out to be, in my opinion.

All this being sai, I still think it is necessary for anyone dealing in creamsicles to be up front about the genetics of their animals so that those who are against intergrades will be forewarned. However, I often wonder what these folks will say if/when the taxonomists re-classify the Great Plains Rat snake as a mere locale specific corn, no more diverse than the okeetee is to the miami. Now, that will be a "fun" day!

 

[dartguy]

uh oh and I just bought a creamsicle for a breeder - LOL

 

[Darin Chappell]

Now who would have sold you a creamsicle as a breeder?

Wait . . .that was me, wasn't it?

Oh well, as long as you tell everyone that they're creamsicles you're selling next year, I don't think the purity police will haul us both away . . .yet.

 

[kenalotia]

I personally think it's a bit ridiculous that some of the purists won't buy a corn who might have had one emoryi ancestor many generations ago. Given that the emoryi and corns can interbreed without any problems, how will you ever know if a wild-caught corn has a little bit of emoryi blood in it? Especially if it comes from a region where corns and emoryi's territory overlap a little. You really don't have any way of knowing if a snake had a single emoryi ancestor several generations ago, unless you've bred all these generations yourself.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Darin Chappell]

I agree with you Kate,

But there are those who will take it even one step further, saying that they will not buy animals from those who have intergrades in their collections OR from those who buy from someone who does have the intergrades.

I had someone tell me that he would not purchase from me because I had some creamsicles in my house. Fair enough I suppose, but he then went on to tell me that, even if the creamsicles were gone, he still wouldn't purchase anything from me because I got some of my corns from others who do keep creamsicles as part of their businesses!

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, so don't get me wrong, but if the intergradation of the cornsnake by those who keep intergrades was as prevalent as some believe it to be, I would think it would be close to impossible to know that a cornsnake was ever 100% free from emoryi blood, no matter where it originated. I mean, even those who have been breeding them for decades in a very closely guarded environment from only w/c starters, there is still the possibility of intergrade blood being in there somewhere. If not emoryi, how about rosacea? Granted most think the rosy rat snake is just a locale specific corn now, but ten years ago it was an intergrade that was produced by an E.g.guttata when bred to an E.g.rosacea.

After all is said and done, I understand other peoples' opinions concerning intergrades, I just don't share them. I also think that many who have "pure" corns may actually have intergrades, if their definition of a pure corn is 100% E.g.guttata and nothing else in any direction on the family tree. I just encourage everyone I know to label their babies as correctly as possible and let everyone else make up their own minds.

 

[Jr Nimeskern]

Darin I agree fully with you... I as of so far have not had a problem with people giving me nasty mail since I keep Creams... I think that it is really unfair for people to do this... For one I think the Emory Rat snake is A Cornsnake!!! its just a little further west then the others... One day the scientist will come to the conclusion that the Emory is indeed a Cornsnake then all the Purist's will have nothing to say!!!

 

[dartguy]

I agree with most everything here - I could understand not wnating to mix genetics from other species to make stuff like jungle corns or whatever - but if it looks good and has a good disposition, who cares if its a creamsicle or rosy rat or the other stuff mentioned - I bought a creamsicle for breeding and he's gorgeous - and I have a "pure" corn female to breed him to and will sell them as "great looking snakes" worth $XX.XX because they "look great"

 

[dartguy]

that was the female
this is the male

 

[bmm]

i think

A major issue with people who feel strongly one way or another is when people like you DARTGUY, (not you specifically but using you for example) have say one creamsicle and one pure corn...

they get a clutch of 10 babies....and say they sell them as *just* "corns, or do not make a point of making the buying know the gentics....then it can ruin an entire breeding project for that person if they are breeding for pure corns. Its a let down to some, a welcome surprise to others but in either case its upsetting to know the genetics of an animal sold to you were not pure, advertised as what they actually are, which is a mix.

I think hybrids, intergrades, mutts whatever are just snakes. In my eyes making them is not wrong, but mislabeling or misrepresentation is definitly wrong and could in some cases put a dent in the hobby. If this is totally avoided, then who cares who makes what. But frankly I don't believe its possible for that to happen. People will mislead, mismark, etc.

bmm