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Bar Stool Economics

Leew

New member
I saw this a long time ago and then got it in an email today. It is a long read but is interesting if you'll take the time for it.



From the University of Georgia


Bar Stool Economics

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and
the bill for all ten comes to $100 and If they paid
their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something
like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.)

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed
quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the
owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good
customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of
your daily beer by $20." so drinks for the ten now cost
just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way
we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected...They
would still drink for free...But what about the other
six men - the paying customers? How could they divide
the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair
share?'...They realized that $20 divided by six is
$3.33...But if they subtracted that from everybody's
share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each
end up being paid to drink his beer..So, the bar owner
suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's
bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to
work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing
(100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before...And
the first four continued to drink for free...But once
outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their
savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the
sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got
$10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man.
"I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got
ten times more than I!" "That's true!!" shouted the
seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got
only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute,"
yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get
anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks,
so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But
when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something
important. They didn't have enough money between all
of them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college
professors, is how our tax system works. The people
who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from
a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for
being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the
atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is
possible.
 
I just want to make sure I got the morale of the story correct.

Always go drinking with a rich person so they can pay the bill. Second, do not beat up the person paying the bill. Third, shoot the poor people for thinking of beating up the rich bill payer. Four, always order an import to support the world economy.

Love the Fatman
 
Ah, another email that dupes people by lying about it's authenticity. "Contrary to Internet folklore, Dr. Kamerschen is NOT the author of "Tax Cuts: A Simple Lesson in Economics" or “Bar Stool Economics” or anything similar to that. Additionally, he does NOT know who wrote it and he has no opinion on its merits".

Regardless of who wrote it though, I find the article an oversimplification of how taxation works and I don't really find the article really all that comparative on how or why the system works the way it does. I mean, after all, while trying to be a cute little analogy, it does nothing to explain why these people have the current economic status that they have. Are the poor people that pay no money for beer out of a job because the "rich" guy outsourced their jobs overseas for lower wages while making a profit for himself? Like I said, it's an oversimplification and if you really start thinking about it and asking pertinent questions, IMHO it doesn't hold up too well under scrutiny. Just my 2 cents.
 
So are you saying that what is, isn't? I've filled out a lot of tax forms and have never seen the line that says, "Why are you poor?" What form do I use when I outsource and get rich?

I think if you read the story for what it is, a simple analogy, you can come away with an understanding that the rich pay a large share of the taxes that this country runs on. That is hard to dispute.

I found real value in your 2 cents however, 2 cents worth.
 
So are you saying that what is, isn't? I've filled out a lot of tax forms and have never seen the line that says, "Why are you poor?" What form do I use when I outsource and get rich?

Obviously you missed my point entirely. I assume that you posted this email to show how unfair the tax system is towards rich people. My point was to try and extrapolate why the differences between poor and rich even exist. It has nothing to do with what a tax form says, that's totally immaterial to the argument. Think about it this way, if everybody made an equal day's money for an equal day's work, then I think everybody would feel more satisfied about how much they were taxed and the reasons why, but then again, the tax system would probably have to be revamped for that kind of world. For example, do you think a person that plays professional basketball for $3 million a year is working harder and earning that money more than let's say a policeman, fireman, military personnel or even a high school teacher does? We live in a very unbalanced system and capitalism plainly does not work in the ways that make much sense. How about a Harvard graduate in economics that gets a CEO job for a large corporation based just on their degree, they can run that business into the ground while making a million dollar salary and are given a multi-million dollar bonus as a gift to leave after the mess they created for that corporation. What does that say about all the bottom feeder workers there who bust their butts working for that corporation and are the ones that are actually making that company functionable? Like I said, "upper level" management types of people are rarely those that have started from the ground up and they generally aren't worth the money they make regardless.

I think if you read the story for what it is, a simple analogy, you can come away with an understanding that the rich pay a large share of the taxes that this country runs on. That is hard to dispute.

You nailed it, it's a "simple analogy". The problem is, it's not a simple problem/system. You've tried to reduce it down to something that it isn't in order to make a point. It's apples and oranges my friend, nothing more. So actually, it's quite easy to dispute. It's only hard to dispute if you accept the illusion of it being simple.

I found real value in your 2 cents however, 2 cents worth.

f you are being sarcastic, then you obviously took offense at my post. I guess that's your prerogative. But my post wasn't an attack on you, so why you've chosen to be so condescending to me only shows your true character for anybody else that might have something to add other than your own deluded opinion. Too bad you closed the door on having any real discussion. I'm out!
 
Since the person it was attributed to denies having written it I find it questionable as well. Maybe a good analogy, maybe not. I'm no economist and I suspect neither is the person who wrote this and tried to give it credibility by using Dr. Kamerschen's name.
 
Gee DeadMouse, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I thought we were just getting started. I won't discuss who is being condescending. But I will discuss who missed the point entirely. The story has nothing to do with why the rich get rich or the poor get poor. Go back and read it again. That is something that will have to be discussed in a different thread.

One of the last paragraphs says
And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college
professors, is how our tax system works. The people
who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from
a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for
being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the
atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.[/QOUTE]

The point of the story is that sometimes people get mad at rich people and think they are getting all the breaks. The thing we all might do well to keep in mind is that the top 10% of the tax payers are paying over 50% of the taxes being collected. Maybe we should be glad that Bill Gates has earned so much money and is able to pay so much in taxes.
 
Since the person it was attributed to denies having written it I find it questionable as well. Maybe a good analogy, maybe not. I'm no economist and I suspect neither is the person who wrote this and tried to give it credibility by using Dr. Kamerschen's name.

I just passed along a story that was emailed to me. I didn't check it out for authenticity. It makes no difference to the story who wrote it. That doesn't change the facts or the meaning of the story.

This is from government data, not my own.

In 2002 the latest year of available data, the top 5 percent of taxpayers paid more than one-half (53.8 percent) of all individual income taxes, but reported roughly one-third (30.6 percent) of income.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometaxandtheirs/a/whopaysmost.htm
 
It kinda does make a difference to the story who wrote it to me - especially when it is being attributed to a renowned professor in order to lend it credibility. Also, I find it interesting that Dr. Kamerschen declined to offer his opinion on its merit. If he thought it had some value why wouldn't he say so?
 
Gee DeadMouse, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Please don't be so arrogant to think that you even irked me a little, you haven't and don't even register on my radar. But I do know when I'm being insulted and choose not to engage in a conversation to any people that resort to those types of lame tactics when they cannot resume a respectful debate. No, you haven't hurt my feelings at all, you just lost my interest in ever paying attention to anything you have to say.

Having said that, think whatever you will about my non-willingness to engage you any further, I could care less as no matter what I say or do, you will always be "right" in your mind. Ta!
 
Well OK DeadMouse. I can see that I have not upset you in the least. I will be aware of your cool level head and try to not irk you or register on your radar. I do appreciate you taking the time to point out my flaws in such a congenial manor.

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is
possible.
 
But I will discuss who missed the point entirely..

"Knowledge should be like a plate of chocolates, set out so those partaking will enjoy and return"


You don't have to pound people. If you set it out to be interesting, then let others make of it what they will. After all, I don't think there are any Cliff's Notes to definitively say what the point is.
 
I give up. DeadMouse has established beyond a reasonable doubt that the author was somebody else. WONDERFUL.

I'm sorry this is so complicated. I thought it was an excepted fact that some people paid more in taxes than others. I didn't realize I was going to have to resurrect Thomas Jefferson to authenticate the actual existence of taxes before I could discuss them.

Lucille, I know for a fact that you are an intelligent woman. I appreciate your input.
 
Hey Leew,

DeadMouse is just mad because he wants to pay for a beer like the rest of use.

Sorry, I forgot that is why I hang out with you so that I do not have to buy either. I like hanging with rich people because they always have good beer in the refrigerator.

Remember to buy import beer because we need to help the world economy.

Love the Fatman
 
I give up. DeadMouse has established beyond a reasonable doubt that the author was somebody else. WONDERFUL.
Who cares who wrote it? I don't particularly care who wrote it, it doesn't change the inaccurate simplicity of it as an analogy to our tax system...

The fact that every accountant/tax lawyer ever blamed for it's creation has flat out and vehemently denied any association *should* give you some idea of it's relative credibility, but I don't blame you for not acknowledging that. It doesn't fit your ideals, so you can just ignore it if you like...

I'm sorry this is so complicated. I thought it was an excepted fact that some people paid more in taxes than others. I didn't realize I was going to have to resurrect Thomas Jefferson to authenticate the actual existence of taxes before I could discuss them.
You don't need to invoke Jefferson, but a little bit of truth and accuracy would go a long way...

Lucille, I know for a fact that you are an intelligent woman. I appreciate your input.
Ahh...but do you appreciate the input of any individual willing to refute your claims of accuracy in this simplistic and sophmoric story about taxation?

Your story is very clever, but little more. It is oversimplified, inaccurate, and just plain silly. The theory isn't even remotely based on any sense or semblance of a realistic society, nor is it remotely accurate in it's "value" as an analogy to our own tax system.

Now...if you'd care to continue debating and discussing, I'm sure you will find plenty of people willing to have an intellectual conversation with you. But slamming somebody and hurling insults because they disagree with you rarely gets a positive response.

This is the second politically charged thread that seems to have set you off at the first hint of disagreement in your very short presence here. It will be interesting to see how this transpires over the next few weeks...
 
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