Bioactive Substrate

[cimckee]

Does anyone here use a bioactive substrate? If so, could you please let me know what yours is composed of and in what quantities. Thanks in advance.

 

[BeckyG]

Most folks on here use aspen or something similar. What is a bioactive substrate anyway?

 

[Preita]

They asked this in on the welcome thread and I pretty much said the same thing lol. Its always better to keep it easier

Heck, I keep the babies on paper towl so their poo's don't get lost (easier faster clean up).

 

[cimckee]

Bss

The Bioactive Substrate is a substrate composed of various substances (i.e. sand, soil, lava rock, peat moss, etc.). The idea is that if you can get the mixture correct and maintain a proper moisture level and temp, then you never have to clean the substrate. Plus it allows you to grow live plants very easily and maintain perfect humidity. It is working great for me as far as the plants and humidity are concerned, but I can't seem to get the microorganisms to grow within the substrate; therefore, the substrate isn't "cleaning" itself. I was hoping someone would be able to help me.

 

[Wilder]

The Bioactive Substrate is a substrate composed of various substances (i.e. sand, soil, lava rock, peat moss, etc.). The idea is that if you can get the mixture correct and maintain a proper moisture level and temp, then you never have to clean the substrate. Plus it allows you to grow live plants

The only problem I really see with this is that in an enclosed vivarium, it never actually WILL 'clean itself' because the snake is still living and defecating in the same environment over and over again. In the wild they can and will slither off into some other area. I can't see this being very healthy over the long term unless it's a very large setup.

As for the live plants, it's great to see baby snakes hanging around in a potted plant... it won't be so cute when the snake has grown up and has crushed all the plants he comes across.

Must be impressive to see, and if you honestly get it working for you, great. For the most part I'll stick with aspen and silk greenery that can't get destroyed! Hopefully someone else can answer your specific questions.

 

[2i2_D3gr33s]

Yeah...you might wanna keep your snakes and science projects in seperate viv's.

 

[cimckee]

Sarcasm not appreciated

Yeah...it's not so much a science project as it is a tried and true method. In Philippe de Vosjoli's book The Art of Keeping Snakes he devotes a large section to BSS' (Bioactive Substrate Systems) and the plants that thrive in such systems with snakes. Just so everyone is clear on Philippe's level of experience, he FOUNDED and GUIDES the publishing company that printed Bill and Kathy Love's book Corn Snakes: The Comprehensive Owner's Guide. He is also generally considered to be the foremost living authority on snake care. So, if there is anyone that can lend a helping hand, I would appreciate it. Thank You

 

[ultimuttone]

:-offtopic
I think the people here are trying to help. Just because they don't know the answer to your question doesn't mean you should be upset. They did take the time to reply.
This is a wonderful community here, but you will have to get a little thicker skinned if the sarcasm bothers you. It is always meant in fun and keeps things a little more on the light side. Being snotty about it won't help you get your answers.
BTW- Welcome to the forum and I hope you learn to enjoy it here and get as much out of it as the rest of us do.

 

[BeckyG]

Thank you for the explanation. Now that I know what it is, I don't think I would recommend something like that, for the reasons already mentioned. For it to truly be self cleaning, and to house plants big enough the snake couldn't crush them, the viv would have to be simply enormous. I'll stick to digging out my snake's poo once a week.

 

[Taceas]

I didn't see any hurtful sarcasm at all. What I saw were people trying to help with something that isn't commonly used and you getting rude because you didn't like that it wasn't recommended.

Sometimes whats in a book doesn't always work. Heck, look at the BP Manual, written and put out by the same publishers you talk about. If I had followed that book, my BP would have been very ill cared for, simply put.

Fecal matter is usually broken down by bactera and fungi in nature. Most of the times those things are frowned upon having in an animals in an enclosed space. Outside, the stuff can leach away and the animals don't have constant contact with the bacteria and fungi. For me to be comfortable with it, it'd have to be a pretty darn huge enclosure.

It just sounds overly complicated and asking for trouble. Especially where captive snakes are concerned. Not to mention I'd be hesitant about my snake ingesting the substrate.

To me its a nice idea in theory, but it sounds like a glorified excuse to not clean out your snake's viv. If you want all of that, get some dart frogs. As that's how they're cared for, in a living vivarium.

To answer your question I guess, snake poo should have enough bacteria to innoculate the substrate. But you might mix in some probiotic powder that contains lactobacilus, bifidus, etc. At least then you know the bacteria would be benign if ingested.

 

[Roy Munson]

Seems like a lot of work to get out of cleaning vivs.

Could you please pass me the aspen?

 

[cimckee]

Missunderstanding

Sorry about the missunderstanding everyone. The poop does have to be removed from the viv once the snake does their business. The whole point of the system is not to be harder, but once it actually starts to work, it should be easier and more enjoyable to care for the snake. In reference to the concern about the snake swallowing the substrate, I don't think I understand it. The BSS is (when you get down to it) just dirt, I don't personally know of any animal that has ever been killed by just swallowing a little bit of dirt (corrections welcome). If someone can assure me that I would not be breaking any copyright laws, I can post the entire explanation from the book. The reason I am attempting the BSS is to make my experience more enjoyable, the idea of creating a semi-self-sustaining eco-system inside of my apartment seems awesome to me, and it isn't hurting the snake. BTW, my viv is larger than most, making the BSS more plausible. So again, sorry if I may have insulted anybody and for the erratic nature of this post.

 

[kathylove]

I read that book a while back. It was great! Philippe has always been WAY ahead of his time, trying to get everyone interested in natural vivs (like the dart frog people do now) way back in the '70s and '80s when the rest of us were just trying to keep herps alive.

I think the BSS idea sounds really interesting and I would love to try it. But he specifically says that it will not work in cages with low ventilation, such as plastic boxes. And that is what I have. He also says it has to be stirred at intervals. So I won't be doing it anytime soon with my corns. But I am experimenting with my Amazon tree boas in their outdoor Reptariums. I not only have hanging plants, but filled a kitty litter pan with various plants and potting soil. I will have several such pans for each cage, rotating them in and out as they get soiled, and then let the sun, rain, and plants bring everything back into balance.

I am also experimenting with a screen lizard cage that Connie Hurley found a great deal on at the end of the Chicago expo (thanks Connie!). I got hubby to attach it to a same size planter after removing the bottom. Then I filled the planter with soil and put a big pothos plant in it, and stuck it outside in the screen room. I put in about 10 non-feeding baby corns that I feel are likely to die anyway (have been tube feeding them) and plan to let them stay out there until they either feed on their own or die. Currently I pull them out once per week and tube them. But I have only had them out there 2 weeks, so don't know if it will work or not.

Such set ups would not be feasible for large scale production. But bigger is not always better! European hobbyists have long been interested in large, planted vivs for their herps. I have seen gorgeous vivs devoted to just a pair of common green snakes in Germany. I also read an article several years ago in a European journal about using sod in cages. It lasts a month or two, depending on light levels. Then they toss it in the yard and put new sod in. They claim it is less stressful for their herps.

I think it is good to start out with an unfamiliar species doing everything the "tried and true way". Then you can likely experience success before trying to see other methods that will work. But once you are successful with a species, if you avoid trying to discover new methods and being a creative pioneer you will, in most cases, eventually become bored. The creativity and excitement of finding out a new, possibly better, way to accomplish the same goal is what keeps things fresh and stimulating.

So don't go totally crazy - but allow yourself the fun of trying something new as long as you monitor the situation and are ready to change it back to the old way if there is a problem.

Have fun!

 

[ocboat]

I also think it sounds like a great idea if you have the space. It sure would look nicer than a plastic tub with aspen (which is what I keep my snakes in). Don't feel the need to apologize for your response in this thread. It seems to me that anytime anyone asks for opinions on things that differ from the norm, there are people who will tell you that it a bad idea even if they have never tried it themselves. Let us know how it works out.

 

[krazybob]

I've been wondering...

I just got my first corn snake a week ago and I want her to be as healthy and happy as possible. She is about 21" long and a pretty pink snow corn. She is in a 20L tank with lots to hide in and play on . My first book was "The Art Of Keeping Snakes" since I found it in the pet store and already had 3 others on order.

I am intrigued by the BSS system and want to do it if I can get it right and do it so it is healthy for her. I guess I should wait a while until I am more familiar with keeping a snake, but I want what is best for my snake. I am thinking about giving the BSS setup a try in a 10 gal aquarium. Does anybody know what to look for in a system like that with no snake living in it? Should I look for healthy plants?

By the way, does anybody have any ideas how old a healthy 21" corn would be?

Robert

 

[desertanimal]

I haven't read the aforementioned book, but it seems to me that one of the tricks of the whole deal would be using plants that are sturdy enough for a full-grown snake to crawl around on. I was trying to think of some, just to be helpful. A lot of the draceana (sp?) genus are commonly raised as houseplants and are pretty sturdy with just that tall, bare, woody stalk under the leaves all at the top. Lots of the euphorpbia would be sturdy enough, but you'd really want to make sure you had a sturdy (thick and chunky) species that wouldn't have small parts that would break off because the sap of most euphorbia is caustic (though I'm not really sure it would actually bother a reptile, it does make me a little itchy). Lots of the pachypodium from Madagascar are sturdy, but they have thorns. The thorns are not as pokey as a cactus--you can grab them without hurting yourself and, in truth, lots of lemurs spend their lives jumping around on them, but they are a little pokey all the same. The trick with these types of plants, though, will be providing sufficient light and ventilation for them. But I guess if you just have a grow-light in there 12 hours a day and a large enough viv, that might be possible. I wouldn't want my snake living among diseased plants (which they all get as soon as the conditions aren't right for them), so I think if it were me I would try the set-up sans snake and see if I could keep the plants happy for several months. Then, if I managed that and felt like the "ecosystem" was stable without the snake, I would add the snake.

I was actually thinking of putting a potted philodendron in my viv and allowing it to climb on the log I have in there, because you can hardly kill those buggers and it wouldn't matter if the snake broke off a leaf or two.

If you have a viv large enough for a small tree, that would be really neat. It seems logical that most naturalistic set-ups would be workable (for the snake) as long as you're willing to scoop some poop and as long as the particular plants weren't harmful to the occupant. You can always feed your snake outside the viv like lots of people do anyway. Good luck and please post pics if you get it working.

 

[kimbyra]

It seems like it would be really tricky, but beautiful. The problem I would most worry about would be belly rot and respiratory problems. A lot of terrarium type plants like it really moist (except succulents of course.) A herp like a chameleon would do really well in it, they're rarely on the ground and like high humidity; but I would be worried about getting it just right for a corn, especially since they get so BIG. Please tell us how it works for you, and what you've done in your tank. :cheers:

 

[Tyger9791]

and the problem with succulents is that they are quite delicate. i have succulents in pots in with my hatchlings, but if the snake reaches 20" or longer...SQUASH! the leaves get broken off and the plant gets uprooted from its pot.

my turtle tank is probably a better example of a BSS system, i guess. i havent read the book on BSS so i'm not familiar. but my turtles come from Costa Rica, a very humid climate. i've grown various tropical plants in their viv and when they get too big, i repot them and they become houseplants! the soil/substrate in their viv is just a mix of cypress mulch, peat moss and coconut bark.
usually my turtles defecate in their waterbowl. they rarely do so outside of their waterbowl. i've never had to spot clean their viv though, except cleaning their waterbowl. and it doesnt smell at all.

 

[BeckyG]

If this is something you really want to do, go for it. I'm not trying to discourage you. Please understand, though, that BSS is not necessary for your snake to be healthy and happy. She will be just as healthy on aspen or newspaper.

But if you do get a BSS system set up and running, be sure and post pictures. I'd love to see it.