• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Black Rat x Corn?

J

JaketheTick

New member
Ok, a buddy of mine found a snake in his shop, and let me have it....he's no snake enthusiast, but was confused as heck because he couldnt figure out what it was....figured i would know..i said sure...i can tell you...hmmm....maybe not...heres the best i can do at a description (until my slack self gets a pic on here, which will be soon) its about 2 1/2 feet long...built more like a black rat than a corn( yeah...there is a slight difference)...has grayish eyes like a black rat...a bright red tongue like ive seen in black rats...a head shaped more like a black rats.. but...its almost like the markings of a youth rat snake, you know the saddles and all like a corn..but theres a lot of yellow and orange and red in them....not quite like a corn..to be honest, it almost looks like a canebrake as far as the shades go, but the pattern is definitely rat snake/corn.... it basically looks like either a really dark corn, or a very oddly colored black rat...id say its dead in the middle of the two...is that a possible mix? Anybody seen one before? Im thinking about a few breeding trials to see what i come up with...it really is and interesting coloration.
 
I've never known them to cross in the wild

but it would seem almost certain that it happens. Their ranges overlap and they are the same genus. I've never known anyone to do it deliberately, either, but that's probably because they would expect a drab cornsnake to result.
There is always the chance that it's a black rat morph. Lots of those are in captivity, and a few are collected in the wild. Unless it's obviously a known morph, I doubt anyone could prove from a photo what, exactly, you have. Even scale counts and such get tricky with intergrades. But we'd all love to see it!
Merry Christmas!
 
Ok, this pic makes the colors a little brighter and more defined than real life...its really a much more drab coloration.
 

Attachments

  • obsoleta-guttatta.jpg
    obsoleta-guttatta.jpg
    33.5 KB · Views: 255
Ok, Granted..the pic of the western rat definitely looks close to mine...but the question is.(by the way in about 13 yrs of the herp world, ive NEVER heard of the western rat snake, maybe im just out of the loop) where can i find out more...ie. more pics...and do they supposedly exist in upstate SC? Also, could this western rat snake not still be a hybrid between guttatta and obsoleta? And thanks for the info..definitely moving ahead on the subject
 
All the info you will need can be found in the footnotes below the pic in the link I posted in my reply above. You'll have to scroll down past the photo credit.

Western rat snakes were formerly known as Texas and/or black rat snakes, if that helps. Western rat snakes do not exist in upstate SC.
 
then this cant be a western rat snake...

this snake was found in my friends workshop(which is right next to a nice large field, full of mice im sure)....and he has found several others he said are very similar....so it wouldnt likely be a western...
 
Sorry to disagree with you, but that is most definitely a western rat snake. There is no doubt in my mind about it.

Seems like to me that the truth is not what you are wanting to hear. In that case, may I suggest that you go ahead and call it a corn/rat snake hybrid or whatever appeals to you. Its not like misrepresentation is rare these days anyway.

I'm not going to waste any more of my time with someone who has "13 years in the herp world" but has never heard of a Texas rat snake.

Take care,
dg
 
Question

Hey Dwight,
How do you explain the fact that this snake was found in S. Carolina.
You, yourself said they are not in S. Carolina.
If indeed this snake was found in S. Carolina which I see no reason to doubt then could it possibly be the result of a captive Western that got loose in the area and bred with the local black rats?
Just curious, not trying to get anything started here.
 
I must admit that I'm not that familiar with all the different rat snakes, but I agree that that snake looks a lot like a texas rat snake. It's darker than those I have seen, but I've also never seen a wild one either (I've just seen those that have been selectively bred for brighter colors).

I think all that Dwight was saying is that the obsoleta group has recently been reclassified into three groups rather than the old names of texas rat snakes, black rat snakes, etc. Now texas rat snakes are being called western rat snakes. Right, Dwight?
 
<i>How do you explain the fact that this snake was found in S. Carolina. You, yourself said they are not in S. Carolina. </i>

My opinion is that the snake is NOT from South Carolina. But that is just my opinion.

<i>If indeed this snake was found in S. Carolina which I see no reason to doubt then could it possibly be the result of a captive Western that got loose in the area and bred with the local black rats?</i>

Nah, doesn't even look like a cross with the eastern rat snake. Looks like a wild caught animal from west of the Mississippi. If the guy found it in his shop then its is obviously an escaped captive.

I can see this is really going nowhere, so I'm going to drop out of this conversation. The 13 year veteran of the herp world can call it whatever he wants. Take my opinions for what they are worth which is a bit less than two cents these days.

Hope you had a nice Christmas Jimmy.

Take care,
dg
 
<i>I think all that Dwight was saying is that the obsoleta group has recently been reclassified into three groups rather than the old names of texas rat snakes, black rat snakes, etc. Now texas rat snakes are being called western rat snakes. Right, Dwight? </i>

Exactly right. I think its odd that someone found a Texas rat snake in SC.

Take care all!
dg
 
Seems to me that it could be a young "greenish" rat snake, intergrad between the yellow and the black rat snakes. I don't remember the range maps in Conant's field guide perfectly, but I think the intergrade range is partly in South Carolina.
Check it out. Conant and Collins' field guide should be in the public library or local book stores.
 
Well, how about if I muddy up the waters here?

greenishratsnake.jpg


I caught this snake myself back in 1988 in South Carolina. To be more precise, it was found under a bridge on route 601 just north of Hampton, South Carolina. Not far from it, I found another specimen that was more yellowish than orange, but still rather similar looking.

And it did not ACT anything at all like a Texas Rat Snake. These are referred to as Greenish Rat Snakes and many people believe they are an integration between the Yellow Rat Snake and the Black Rat Snake. Other people feel that they are not, but are instead a different subspecies alltogether, that integrades with Yellow Rat Snakes on the southern side of its range, and Black Rat Snakes on the northern edge. I have no opinion either way.

I bred this animal into my Amelanistic Black Rat snake line that I was working with at the time, and after going through a generation of REALLY ugly animals, started producing some rather pretty looking orange colored Amelanistics. Of course, that was around 11 years ago, and I have long since gotten rid of all of them. That original animal in the photo was released within a couple of miles of where I caught him.
 
Doesn't look like a greenish to me

I've seen a lot of 'em (locality more coastal than Greenville), and they usually show noticable striping (like the yellow). Of course photos can be deceiving.
One thing I wonder... What is the temperment of that snake? I'm assuming MEAN, b/c I'm assuming Texas. But I'd never heard the name "western" either. And Obsoleta obsoleta is a black rat, unless things have changed even since Pantherophis. So wondering, Dwight, what is the animal subspecifically? How many subspecies of obsoleta are currently recognised? Coburn's Altas didn't go very deep into it...
 
<i>I've seen a lot of 'em (locality more coastal than Greenville), and they usually show noticable striping (like the yellow). Of course photos can be deceiving. </i>

I agree Chip. Black rat snakes from Greenville tend to be mostly black. Very black in fact.

<i>But I'd never heard the name "western" either. </i>

Please go to this link and read the footnotes. Burbrink's research inspired the split of the 'obsoleta' complex into three subs...

Elaphe obsoleta, the western rat snake

Elaphe spiloides, the midland rat snake

Elaphe alleghaniensis , the eastern rat snake


<i>And Obsoleta obsoleta is a black rat, unless things have changed even since Pantherophis. So wondering, Dwight, what is the animal subspecifically? </i>

That is a western rat snake, Elaphe obsoleta. Formerly known as Elaphe obsoleta lindheimeri. Or if you prefer to use Pantherophis, the snake would be Pantherophis obsoletus.

<i>How many subspecies of obsoleta are currently recognised? Coburn's Altas didn't go very deep into it...</i>

According to the CNAH site (Joe Collins) there are no subspecies of "obsoleta" but instead the three species mentioned above.

Later,
dg
 
<i>Well, how about if I muddy up the waters here?

I caught this snake myself back in 1988 in South Carolina. To be more precise, it was found under a bridge on route 601 just north of Hampton, South Carolina. Not far from it, I found another specimen that was more yellowish than orange, but still rather similar looking. </i>

LOL, not sure how this muddies up the waters? The snake you posted a picture of is obviously an eastern clade rat snake, but the one posted by the originator of this thread is obviously a western clade snake. While your snake appears to have a bit more orange than what I would expect, its by no means a total stretch of what one might find in coastal SC/GA/north FL.

<i>And it did not ACT anything at all like a Texas Rat Snake. These are referred to as Greenish Rat Snakes and many people believe they are an integration between the Yellow Rat Snake and the Black Rat Snake. Other people feel that they are not, but are instead a different subspecies alltogether, that integrades with Yellow Rat Snakes on the southern side of its range, and Black Rat Snakes on the northern edge. I have no opinion either way. </i>

According to Burbrink, they are all eastern rat snakes. Traditionally the yellow rat is the name given to animals caught along the coastal areas in NC, SC, GA, and north Florida. The intergrades occur further inland. But of course with all the mixing and matching its no surprise to find black rats, greenish, and "yellows" in the same area... especially in parts of GA.

<i>I bred this animal into my Amelanistic Black Rat snake line that I was working with at the time, and after going through a generation of REALLY ugly animals, started producing some rather pretty looking orange colored Amelanistics. Of course, that was around 11 years ago, and I have long since gotten rid of all of them. That original animal in the photo was released within a couple of miles of where I caught him. </i>

Was this the origin of your amel yellow rats that you were selling circa '96 or so??


Thanks for posting the pic, that animal is certainly different than other SC animals I've seen/owned.

Take care,
dg
 
Burbrink's research inspired the split of the 'obsoleta' complex into three subs...
Click to expand...

Whoops, actually that is incorrect.. there are no subs of obsoleta. But the obsoleta 'complex' is split into three as I mentioned. Sorry for the confusion!
 
Was this the origin of your amel yellow rats that you were selling circa '96 or so??
Click to expand...

Never had any amelanistic yellow rat snakes. I did have amelanistic black rat snakes, however. I bought my original adult female from Tom Crutchfield, who got it from someone who captured it in Maryland. There was supposedly a good population of the albino black rat snakes found outside of Washington D.C. on the Maryland side, which I assume where that one came from. Wasn't all that pretty of an animal....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top