Blizzard + Butter???

[MikeSaw23]

I am think of buying a blizzard and a butter.

If I breed them I am supposed to get:
Male is, Butter
Female is, Blizzard

Offspring are predicted to be...
100.00%, Amelanistic, Het for Charcoal, Het for Caramel

When I breed the babies together I am supposed to get:
Male is, Amelanistic, Het for Charcoal, Het for Caramel
Female is, Amelanistic, Het for Charcoal, Het for Caramel

Offspring are predicted to be...
25.00%, Amelanistic, Het for Charcoal, Het for Caramel
12.50%, Butter, Het for Charcoal
12.50%, Blizzard, Het for Caramel
12.50%, Amelanistic, Het for Caramel
12.50%, Amelanistic, Het for Charcoal
6.25%, Blizzard, Caramel
6.25%, Butter
6.25%, Blizzard
6.25%, Amelanistic

My case what is a Blizzard, Caramel is it possilbe to happen?

 

[Drizzt80]

My case what is a Blizzard, Caramel is it possilbe to happen?

A Blizzard Caramel would be a snake homozygous for Amel, Caramel, and Charcoal. Yes it would be possible if you got all three traits homozygous in the resulting offspring (6.25% of them statistically).

The real question would be what would it look like? My guess would be it would look like a yellow snow. Blizzards have a tendency to have some yellow in them outlining the saddles, throw in the caramel and voila' yellow-er blizzard. Of course, you're talking mixing traits here and anything is possible . . . it could come out green. :shrugs:

I'd be more interested in seeing a (proven) Charcoal Caramel myself.
D80

 

[MikeSaw23]

I would like to try it.
How much do you think it would be worth?

 

[Drizzt80]

How much do you think it would be worth?

Not to come off as rude, but whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I personally don't breed for what my snakes may be worth, I breed for project snakes that I would like to create. :shrugs: Having a few 'extras' that other people are willing to purchase is my fringe benefit! :grin01:

That being said, a Blizzard typically could go for anywhere from $30-$60, throw Caramel in there and maybe $50-$80?? Of course, you're going to need to be able to assure the customer they are getting a Blizzard Caramel . . .
12.50%, Blizzard, Het for Caramel
6.25%, Blizzard, Caramel
6.25%, Blizzard

25% of your results could potentially 'just' look like blizzards . . . something to think about. If your clutch actually followed the statistics, and you hatched out 16 eggs . . . 4 of them would be white snakes. Which one of those 4 is the Blizzard Caramel??!!

When your clutch doesn't follow the statistics, which one (or 2 or 5) of the 5 white snakes is a Blizzard Caramel?!?!

D80

 

[MikeSaw23]

What else is a good project dealing with Blizzards and Butters?

 

[Drizzt80]

What else is a good project dealing with Blizzards and Butters?

:sidestep:

Sorry, but that's entirely up to you! I would never venture to come up with a project for someone else. There's too much opinion and personal preference tied up in what each individual person likes in their snake(s).

Personally, I'd respectfully recommend you not breed anything until you decide what it is you like and/or are able to work with . . . and of course have an outlet for your extra hatchlings. :shrugs:

D80

 

[tyflier]

:sidestep:

Sorry, but that's entirely up to you! I would never venture to come up with a project for someone else. There's too much opinion and personal preference tied up in what each individual person likes in their snake(s).

Personally, I'd respectfully recommend you not breed anything until you decide what it is you like and/or are able to work with . . . and of course have an outlet for your extra hatchlings. :shrugs:

D80

Great answer, Drizz...

I think that breeding should be more about something you want to see, not "what can I sell". I have a project I am getting the parents for next week. Next spring, I will breed them. I am *hoping* I get a very interesting combination. If not...I will still have some very pretty baby snakes, that I already have made arrangements with the local pet shops for.

You should also realize that if you decide to try something new(such as a new combination of recessives), you may very well have to wait until the clutch is sub-adult status, or at least yearling, before the "true" colors come out, and the genes actually show themselves. You need to be prepared for that, if you're really planning on doing something "new", like a blizzard caramel. It would kind of suck to breed a new triple recessive only to sell it to the local pet shop for $20 because it looks like a normal blizzard until it turns a year old...then becomes incredibly yellow and entirely new looking...

Of course...you also have to realize that there is no real guarantees. You could breed a blizzard and a butter to each other. And all the offspring will be amelanistic, sure. But in order to be sure you get what you are *really* looking for, you may very well have to hold back the entire clutch until they are of breeding age, to prove which offspring have the right hets. to give you what you want. And then you might STILL have to hold back plenty of the f2 offspring before you really get the look you are after...which may never happen, because when you combine various recessive genes in hopes of getting a "new look"...you never really can be sure of what that particular combination is going to do. There is masking, and then there is the possiblity that combing those 3 recessive genes could create something completely different from what you were expecting...

It's a whole new world...

 

[Rich Z]

Well, I'm breeding the second generation this year of some Blizzards that are possibly homozygous for Caramel. Some do have some substantial yellow markings to them, but unfortunately the only way to tell for sure will be to breed them back to a Butter to see if I get all Butters. (Yeah, I know, I COULD use a Caramel. But that would be an even BIGGER step backwards!) Not sure I am inclined to do that, though. Well maybe if I can find a spare Butter female around here somewhere. But can't really say I would see much reason to produce a bunch of Butters het Charcoal, though..... :shrugs: And if the male I choose happens to NOT be what I think it is, then that's just great. A bunch of Amels het Caramel and Charcoal. Just what I need.....

As for breeding the entire GROUP back to Butters just to see what is what, nope, I'm DEFINITELY not going to do that. Sometimes the price of knowledge for knowledge ONLY sake is just more than I can convince myself to accept. Interesting, for sure, but not THAT interesting.......

This will probably wind up being a LOT like my Butter Snow project (Xanthic Snows) in that I sold off nearly all of the adults because babies looked quite a bit like normal Snows until they got some maturity to them. So I suspect these will just look like regular Blizzards until the yellow coloration begins to bloom in them. Certainly from what I can recall from these babies, NONE of them looked like much out of the ordinary. The yellow coloration on some of them does produce a very pleasing looking animal, but not sure it will be worth pursuing any further after this.

Man, I MUCH prefer genetic combos that are of the flashing neon light category when they are something different....... Unfortunately, that isn't all that common any longer with the newer things we are trying. So we will be producing more questions than answers for a while. At least until someone DOES do the back breedings to figure out what is what.

 

[tyflier]

Along the same lines as Rich's feelings, I am of the opinion that a "new morph", that isn't so substantially different from existing morphs in terms of "the look", is fairly pointless from anything other than a breeding standingpoint.

Meaning, if Rich can't tell the difference between a blizzard and a caramel blizzard, definitively, by the look alone...is it really worth the headache to produce them? Other than the obvious breeding potential from a triple homozygous snake, is there really enough market value in a snake that can't be visually identified as something different? Enough to make the potential headaches and breeding trials worthwhile?

That is something only you can decide for yourself. I'm gonna take a chance with my project, simply because I want to know. I am new to the breeding game and, unlike Rich, I DO want to know badly enough to take that chance of disappointment. It is knowledge that I don't mind putting in the work for...primarily because I doubt anyone else wants to do it, and if they DO...I don't want to wait for them to get started ...

These are all decisions that need to be made by each individual. What do you want to breed, and what are you willing to sacrifice to get there...???

 

[Rich Z]

Well, the problem is that there always has to be the FIRST person to try something in order to find out if it is worthwhile or not. And even then, "worthwhile" may be subjective, depending on who is making that determination. When you have an almost unlimited number of projects to pick from, you have to be selective and try to make your time and efforts as worthwhile as possible to YOU. Realistically speaking, the more things you see, the less likely it is that newer things will really be all that exciting any longer. Hatching out my first Blizzard corn was exciting. Finding out that combining all of the Hypo genes with Lavender gives me (speculating) another Blizzard looking animal the HARD way, wouldn't be very exciting to me. Matter of fact, when I determined that the 'C' Anerythristic was a new gene, my first thought was "Oh great.... Just what we need... ANOTHER confusion thrown into the mix...."

As we do more and more combos, there are bound to be MANY that will be visually indistinguishable from other genetic combos. That chances of keeping all of those combos (plus the culls from those projects) accurately identified is pretty much nil. Just the simple case of doing test breeding of similar looking genetic variants to see if they are an existing genes produces animals that unless you are willing to euthanize or keep them all, automatically sows the seeds of chaos when you sell them off. How many people will be able to hatch out a clutch of babies containing 'C' Anerythrism, 'A' Anerythrism, Charcoal, and Caramel and be able to immediately identify all of them? Much less any combos in the clutch? Probably no one on earth at all. So unless they keep them all (or euthanize them) and sell them off, how will they label them? So the seeds have now sprouted roots.

And carrying that thought further, the chances of someone posting a photo of an animal and being able to get an accurate ID of it, is even now, pretty much nil in a lot of cases. Heck, I KNOW the genetics behind my clutches as well as anyone can, and I STILL get animals hatching out that have me scratching my head. :crazy02:

 

[TandJ]

Yellow blizzards? Sounds as bad as yellow snow, and you remember what Mom told you about eatting yellow snow? *lol* then *ducks and runs * If that is a project you want to persue, fill your boots, but the advice you got here is very sound..

Regards.. Tim of T and J




tag 1700

 

[tyflier]

Well...I can only hope that my "experiment" proves "worthwhile" in that I can visually identify the "odd-man-out"...which would tell me fairly accurately what it is...I HOPE!! Even if the quadruple recessive I am looking for proves to be a "waste of time" as regards the look, it is worthwhile to me as a future breeder to be homozygous for all 4 traits.

Otherwise...my TRUE hope is to hatch out some really nice babies, knowing what the genetic histories are, and sell a few and keep a few for pets and future breedings.

Luckily, my project *should* produce limited results, because of limited hets. and matching phenotypes. Unless I have several unknown hets(which I am actually expecting), I only have a few limited outcomes...I HOPE!!! :crazy02: :crazy02:

Man, am I learning to LOVE the genetics side of this game ...

 

[Rich Z]

Well I believe your worst enemy in the genetics game will be Lady Luck. Suppose you breed multi hets together and are the first to do so with this particular combo. And in that first clutch, NOTHING looks out of the ordinary. Heck, you may not even know what to expect, but nothing LOOKS out of the ordinary. Does that mean your project was a flop, or was it just that Lady Luck did not smile upon you? Actually at this point, you have absolutely no way of knowing. That 1 in 64 odds can really be a killer sometimes. Actually, even 1 in 16 can kick your butt sometimes. So, are you going to try again? Will your luck be any better next time? No guarantees at all that it will be.... But man you put a lot of effort into the project up to this point. Are you going to give up so easily? But suppose next year, STILL nothing! What do you do now?

So at some point, you have to decide either to cut the project loose because it did not pan out, or stay the course hoping your luck has just been rotten and it will eventually get better. Tough choice to make, for sure.

Knowing full well how Murphy's Law works (he's the brother of Lady Luck) you sell off those adults, and the very first season the guy you sold them to produces a unique looking animal........ :roflmao:

 

[tyflier]

Well I believe your worst enemy in the genetics game will be Lady Luck. Suppose you breed multi hets together and are the first to do so with this particular combo. And in that first clutch, NOTHING looks out of the ordinary. Heck, you may not even know what to expect, but nothing LOOKS out of the ordinary. Does that mean your project was a flop, or was it just that Lady Luck did not smile upon you? Actually at this point, you have absolutely no way of knowing. That 1 in 64 odds can really be a killer sometimes. Actually, even 1 in 16 can kick your butt sometimes. So, are you going to try again? Will your luck be any better next time? No guarantees at all that it will be.... But man you put a lot of effort into the project up to this point. Are you going to give up so easily? But suppose next year, STILL nothing! What do you do now?

So at some point, you have to decide either to cut the project loose because it did not pan out, or stay the course hoping your luck has just been rotten and it will eventually get better. Tough choice to make, for sure.

Knowing full well how Murphy's Law works (he's the brother of Lady Luck) you sell off those adults, and the very first season the guy you sold them to produces a unique looking animal........ :roflmao:

Well, Rich...considering that my "Adam & Eve" are of your stock...I'm hoping your last paragraph proves to be true :crazy02:

In all honesty...the pair(s) that I'm working with will produce excellent offspring, even if NONE of the hets come into to play. If Murphy has his way, and I produce ONLY offspring of the same phneotype as the parentage...I'll still be happy. They will still be worthwhile snakes for my "first project"...

 

[Flagg]

My oldest female is my first corn, an 05 normal female that apparently came as part of a bulk sale to another breeder from Serpenco.

So what are the odds Rich, what were you working on in 05? =)

 

[Rich Z]

My oldest female is my first corn, an 05 normal female that apparently came as part of a bulk sale to another breeder from Serpenco.

So what are the odds Rich, what were you working on in 05? =)

LOL!! A LOT of projects. Too many, matter of fact, which is why I cut loose a lot of adults this past year. As for what that "normal" may be carrying, well honestly just about ANYTHING....... :grin01: When the eggs begin hatching, I just pick out the few I am interested in (either for future projects or they are valuable being sold at retail) and just bulk out all of the rest. So there is no telling what clutch that particular animal may have come from. They are simply put into a bag and shipped out to the wholesalers.

 

[waldo]

Blizzard + Butter gives me visions of a nearly patternless very pale yellow snake. That would be awsome Can't wait to see what you get, heres hoping lady luck shines down on you.

 

[waldo]

You could call them buzzards or blutters :grin01:

 

[Rich Z]

Blizzard + Butter gives me visions of a nearly patternless very pale yellow snake. That would be awsome Can't wait to see what you get, heres hoping lady luck shines down on you.

Actually from the examples I have here, it is more like a typically white Blizzard corn with a strongly outlined pattern in yellow. Some have a bold splash of yellow on the sides of the head and neck as well. Actually rather pleasing to the eye, in my opinion. I'm leaning more and more to preferring this to the rather bland look the patternless Blizzards produce.

 

[waldo]

Rich, you just ruined my vision of grandiosity :eek1: I know they will probably just be white and yellow but I can dream.

I wonder what it would take to produce a patterless or nearly patternless very pale yellow snake?