bloodred genetics... just to understand

[Italian Python]

I have some questions about bloodred:

you know that bloodred crossed with normal one produce in first generation some offsprings that are similar to bloodred ( outcrossed bloodred ), and some that are not, but all the offsprings are assumed to be het bloodred.
there's something in bloodred that remind me something like a co-dominant trait, like hypo in boas and pastel in ball pythons, but everywhere I read that it's a normal recessive mutation, and like that follow the mendelian laws.
so my quesiton is:
what's the genetic difference between outcrossed bloodred and normal siblings?
do they will produce nicer offsprings than the normal siblings
what influence the evidence or not of that trait?

thanks

 

[Vinman]

yo paison

It's vinny from the bronx, ho boy is this going to be long (#1) the base stock of the blood reds com from hastings fla. the normal corns from there have a subdued dorsal pattren not much contrast between saddles and backround color. (#2) The black borders around the saddles are reduced or gone in some cases. ( #3 )The corns from hastings,have little or no side pattren the ones I seen myself in person 2 cb adults have no side pattren .( #4 ) the snakes from there tend to be more in the red huge than orange.(#5) The belly pattren is highly reduced there agin the two cb adults that I seen had a one row of small dots on each side of the belly. Anybody that I have talked to that has seen corns from there tell me the same thing. The fact that the blood red gene comes from there may have something to do with what the normal population looks like. In my oppion I'm sure the bloodred gene has influenced this wild population of corns I know from my own exp. mutations such motley, stripe, and blood tend to but not always alter the hets in some ways.Now lets look at the 2nd. gen .( babies from het parents) some of these babies will have odd pattrens even though the may not be caring any gegns at all. Now lets put this all together . The base stock that you use with a mutation will alter what the mutation looks like. So when someone crosses a normal corn into the pure bloodred stock they are putting other genes into their blood stock like orange. It is more common for corns to be orange than red, good red is hard to get in corns. Side pattren is very common in corns. I've seen some wild and F1 corns with no side pattren from all over their range but side pattren seems to be more of the standed pattren. black boders this may have some outcome , depending on what mutation you are working with definitly bloodred.This is why most of the blood reds that you see today are not as high quilty as the original blood red stock. A lot of the bloods I see today, not all, but most are more orange red to light orange ,have dorsal and or side pattren with some with black edgeing.
I hope this helped you and anybody else who didn't understand the bloodred gene. If anybody wants to further discuss bloodrdes with me you are more than welcome to call me at my house or email me your phone # and I will call you . 718 792 2593 or email [email protected]

 

[Serpwidgets]

there's something in bloodred that remind me something like a co-dominant trait, like hypo in boas and pastel in ball pythons, but everywhere I read that it's a normal recessive mutation, and like that follow the mendelian laws.

The bloodred morph is the result of a simple "variable codominant" pattern mutant, combined with selective breeding (or some other unknown genetic factor) for color.

The pattern mutant, being codominant, often has some influence on the patterns of hets.

The color, being the result of selective breeding (or whatever other genetic factor) often shows in the offspring of bloodred corns. Just like the "okeetee look" of reverse okeetees often shows in their offspring.

When crossing the hets back together, the pattern mutation follows mendelian laws. The color tends to act more like a selectively bred influence, so F2s can be "better" or "worse" than the bloodred grandparent.

 

[Italian Python]

The pattern mutant, being codominant, often has some influence on the patterns of hets.

so if it's codominant, only the offspring that shows the phenotipical mutation, carry the bloodred genes! the normal siblings don't!

so,the term "Het bloodred" is not correct!

 

[Hurley]

The term "het bloodred" is correct regardless of the nature of the gene (recessive, dominant, or co-dominant to normal). Het, being short for heterozygous, means that the pair of genes you are talking about in a particular animal is unalike. "Het bloodred" means one normal gene, one bloodred mutant gene at that locus. Doesn't matter the phenotype of the animal. Het just means the animal carries a pair of unalike genes.

 

[Serpwidgets]

so if it's codominant, only the offspring that shows the phenotipical mutation, carry the bloodred genes! the normal siblings don't!

It varies. Some of the hets show a lot of influence in their pattern. But some of the hets can look like normals. I have seen a wide range of variation in siblings. This is why I say "variable codominant" instead of just codominant.

so,the term "Het bloodred" is not correct!

People use the term "bloodred" in many ways. Some use it to describe anything that is from bloodred ancestors and is carrying the pattern mutant, even if they do not look like the original line, and even if it does not produce dark red offspring. In that way (calling the pattern gene "bloodred") "het bloodred" means what they say.

IMO this is like calling the amel gene "candycane" and calling all normals "het candycane." I prefer to call the pattern gene "diffused" for this and other reasons. :dgrin:

 

[Vinman]

I. python

If you read what I wrote you. your answer is there, it is in layman terms dont be confused with the term (variable codominant) If you breed a blood to a normal you will have 100% hets ,if you breed het to het you will get 1/4 bloods , 1/4 normal and 1/2 het the problem is that the normal and the hets may look normal to abnormal some may look almost like a blood and to a novice can be easily fooled It works just like motley or stripe you can not tell the driffrance bewten a het and a possable het from looking at them, the one that looks the most normal could the het and the one that looks the most odd of all the babies in the clutch could be a normal .
ciao, Vinny

 

[Jynx]

Best way to visually tell the difference between het and homo bloodred, regardless of the pattern: homozygous bloodreds have no belly pattern at all. Because of the codominancy, a het may have a diffused pattern, but will still have checkering on the belly. Some belly checkering on hets may also be muted, much like the side pattern.

Its kind of the same with boas, but kind of not. Doouble hets for hypo and anery have a codominancy to them, and can appear to be (and in some cases can be considered) ghosts, but a true genetic ghost is an animal that is homozygous for both traits, what I believe is called a super ghost.

 

[Vinman]

blood

I would have to disagre I have seen animals from a out cross blood project one animal was bright red and I meen red with no black markings on the belly and no pattren on the body and was not het or was a blood it was a normal it was from cris mcquaid from gulf cost something thing or other. Some one used to breed them for him every year. I have had corns hatch of my own blood projects with no belly pattren some hets and some not. Rich and me had long convo. about this on the phone. Bill love talked about this in his book. There are more than one characteristic to tell a blood than just no belly pattren . The head pattren you have to look for the gray markings on the left & right sidetopside of the head . the diffused pattren on the the side of the snake. blood red babies have a distinct look to their sides. Vinny

 

[Jynx]

Because of the varying skull and side diffusion pattern in both het and homo bloodreds, I personally don't think they are dependable as a visual identification method. I have seen homo bloodreds with almost no greying on their head and very little side pattern diffusion, and hets that visually looked more "bloodred" even though they did not homozygously display the trait. Since you have been looking into this particular subject more than I have, I am not saying by any means you are wrong, I'm just stating my own methods and an opinion based on what I use to identify them. I mention the belly markings because good bloodred specimen or not, genetically a homozygous bloodred should have no belly pattern, and it is the easiest method of identification, much like a motley ot stripe.

I would have to disagre I have seen animals from a out cross blood project one animal was bright red and I meen red with no black markings on the belly and no pattren on the body and was not het or was a blood it was a normal

I don't know what to say to that except if it was an outcross blood project, then it has the diffuse gene somewhere in it, which has to explain the markings.

 

[Vinman]

me agin

I dont clame to know everthing but I've seen a lot in my years ,the only exp. I can come up with is the normal base stock of the orgial bloods had a very subdued pattren real low contrast and have the red tones then the were breed to get better and better red color. So if you can get animals that come off bloodred projects that have no belly pattren and no gene for bood . Color and pattren is what were talking about . Well low contrast ,good red color have been seen in other wild populations and in F1, F2 and corns in the hobby . Being the blood gene does not make the snake red its intensifies the color the bloods come off red stock this can be passed to none bloods it is just color. subdued pattren that can be passed down to, it is just pattren the blood gene agin intensifieds it . there are lots of out crossed bloods with light to strong patterns. like I said before I belive the blood gene has altered the wild population of corns in hastings. If the blood gene would have pop up in miami or some where else they would not have been called bloodreds.It is not uncommon for the corns from south Ga. to north fla have good red to deep red color , some that are almost pattrenless.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I mention the belly markings because good bloodred specimen or not, genetically a homozygous bloodred should have no belly pattern, and it is the easiest method of identification, much like a motley ot stripe.

Yeah, I have an example of normal head pattern on a homozygous specimen. The belly is generally the most reliable method. However, there are some cases where the belly is altered by motley, striped, or selectively bred influences, like keys corns that can have practically no checkering to begin with. In those cases, test breeding to determine the genotype would be indicated.

But keep in mind that if your goal is to go for an extremely diffused side pattern, it would be best to start off with the most extreme example you can find.

 

[Jynx]

Vinman, I think you and I are talking about different things. I was talking about the genetic trait diffuse, and you're talking about just color and pattern regardless of genetics...that would explain the confusiosn

 

[Vinman]

hey hey

you said in your post that you can tell a homo blood from a het because there is no belly pattren I was just pointing out that you could have the whole package and not have a blood. I think the contrast has a lot to do with the way the defussed trait is expressed. what do you think ? Its tricky , here is the all time stumper there is a lady named Karen Ellit she is out the hobby now but a few years back she gave me a weard corn that came from the pure non out crossed bloods. It had lot of black, strong dorsal pattren , no side pattren and a normal head pattren I would have to agree with Serpwidgets when in doubt prove it out. :noevil:

 

[Jynx]

a lady named Karen Ellit she is out the hobby now but a few years back she gave me a weard corn that came from the pure non out crossed bloods. It had lot of black, strong dorsal pattren , no side pattren and a normal head pattren I would have to agree with Serpwidgets when in doubt prove it out. :noevil:

I agree. The only thing you can do in that case is breeding trials. I would say the same thing about the first snake you werer talking about. With the first one, I would start a process. 1. Visually, what does it look like. Muted side pattern, head pattern stretched and greyed out, no belly pattern: I would at first say bloodred..I'm pretty sure most people would, so its a logical auumption. Unfotunately like you sai, that doesn't always work, so 2. breeding trials are necessary.