breeding snakes for money

[scottrussell]

i will preface this post to say that it's not about weather breeding snakes as an investment is good/bad but just weather or not it is in fact profitable.

now i'm a novice snake owner. i have a few corns that are for both pets and for breeding once they are big enough. when i was younger, like in middle school i had a boa, and lizards, chameleons etc too and just gotten back into them recently.

now everyone knows how addictive snakes are once you get a couple, so just for fun i scour over kingsnake every few days and other various websites to pickup what kinds of phases are available and how much each type costs...and this is for all snakes not just corns. i typically look around corns, ball pythons, and boas. now it just seems to me like taking two snakes that are worth 2 grand each and breeding them, selling their babies for that much just seems a little too simplified. even on mike wilbank's site he says that doing this is a good investment; his friend buys a pastel ball python and makes about 3 grand off it per year just doing that. now what if you decided to breed say...an albino boa. it would make sense to sell pastel balls for like 1500 because ball pythons on average have like 7 eggs. why is it that you can breed two albino boas together, have them birth 20-50 babies and sell them for a grand each? does it really work this way? are people stuck with 25 neonate albino boas cause only 5 people wanted to buy them at 1000 dollars each? or is there that much demand in the snake market that THAT many people want snakes that cost several hundred dollars? this is just all out of interest of course; its not meant to start an argument that its a rotten thing to do..to breed rare snakes to make a buck, but rather how big is the snake market actually? i really have no clue. i've also notice if you regularly check the kingsnake classifieds about 50% of the ads on there are constantly being recycled and just posted again...which leads me to believe that all the snakes being produced today aren't being bought?

 

[princess]

Well it's good that you're thinking about it this way rather than just seeing dollar signs!

 

[Joker]

Yeah you really need to look at it. I know that with our stock of animals, ranging from Corns to Boas and Pythons it will be a LONG time before any of it could EVER be profit. If your gonna do it do it because you love it not for $$$$$$. If you jump in for moneys sake your gonna be setting yourself up for dissapointment more times than not.
Josh

 

[CaptBogart]

I was thinking the same thing, and did a little research locally. The colubrids produce way more hatchlings and are in greater demand because they are first time snake owner purchases compared to the boids. I thought there couldn't be that great of a demand unless you come across something really rare and in the now, but a few of the local shops say they are always looking for more of the common stock, especially during the off season. That also raises the question though for the high end sales of morphs, (mostly to collectors and fellow breeders), that if the hatchlings I purchase now are planned for future breeding, anything I hatch will already have been market flooded, so the only ones that actually make the big money are those working on morphs not yet available? I came to the conclusion that the amount of time to come up with something new, and that in itself starts with a new trait (good luck) that can be reproduced, getting one shot a year with only a few with that trait, then waiting for those to become breeding size, then all the genetics tracking (makes my head hurt) and feeding and housing all of those snakes..... This would require a higher price just to make some overhead on what turns out to be a hobby turned job. On the other hand, for the novice, you would probably only make enough to recoup costs and fund the addiction by selling to pet stores or your own online sales, at least that's what I've gotten from asking the same questions of the local shop owners. Of course they might have thought I was a newb looking to offload some hatchlings they thought they could get cheap.. I'm really looking forward to seeing some responses from the people who are actually on the mass breeding side of this to see if this is true....

 

[mbdorfer]

Don't quit your day job :grin01:

 

[Serpwidgets]

Don't quit your day job.

Heh, yeah. To replace a regular job, you'd have to make about twice that much in profits just to come out even with salary and benefits. (Forgive the following estimates, but it's intended to give a rough idea of what all would be involved.)

To replace a $20/hr full time job, you'd have to make about $320 a day in profit, and that's 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year.

If you're selling snakes at about $100 profit per snake, you'd have to sell at least 3 snakes a day, every weekday... 780 of them each year, and that's assuming that nothing ever goes wrong and you don't have to replace any of them.

(Try to sell one $100 snake inside a week. :grin01: )

It gets more interesting when you start doing the math on what it would take to get yourself in a position where you're hatching enough to have 780 a year to sell... and don't forget the ones you have to be feeding in the meantime as they grow up.

The other thing that a lot of hobbyists want to do is sell hatchlings to supplement their income. But it's very low pay when you consider the number of hours and dollars you have to put into producing a clutch and selling it. After several years work you might make a few hundred or even a few thousand dollars. Compare this to the amount of income you'll be making working a job in all that time and it's a drop in the bucket.

I'm not saying it isn't worth it. However, I think the vast majority of those who stick with it are ones who do so because they love the hobby itself, not because they think they're going to make money with it.

The biggest issue for anyone who is in it to make money is that, because this is a hobby, they have to compete with others who don't care if they make money. This helps to drop the market prices toward the point where it's not profitable. It's not like if you open a pizza joint... there isn't going to be someone across the street selling pizzas at cost and undercutting your prices just because they love making them. :santa:

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I have been breeding for a few years. 'In order of difficulty' I have been able to sell the babies:
-as wholesale lots
-to local pet stores and reptile dealers
-to local 'new snake owners' that want pet snakes
-online
Is it profitable? I'm not sure. If I make any money I usually spend it on mice, vivs, or more snakes. I do it because it's fun. I can't afford really expensive morphs but I have narrowed my collection down to ghosts, motleys, stripes, and hets for those three traits. I am hoping to play around with these morphs and come up with some nice snakes that will be saleable but I am not in a rush. Again the fun part is why I do it. I have learned that producing normals, amels, and snows is not the best way to sell babies, there's already a lot out there so they don't exactly fly out of the racks! Get the best ones you can, take good care of them and be patient but don't expect to get rich!

 

[SevierSerpents]

I think 5 words sum it up fairly well.

Don't

Quit

Your

Day

Job

 

[scottrussell]

i think the point of my post was kind of missed. i know by breeding corn snakes and other snakes that are normal morphs that sell for 20-100 dollars its not very profitable. what i was wondering is how people are able to breed boas and sell their babies for thousands of dollars each, when they have so many young. surely if an albino boa is priced at a grand still, and the morph was discovered a decade ago, people must still be buying them for that much. and even more crazy morphs like sunglow, why wouldn't you quit your day job if you have 30 neonates worth 5 grand each?

 

[johnbort2]

For myself, I have Suboc breeders and Argentine rainbow boas (im also raising corn pairs), but I think of it more of supporting my hobby. If I sell all my babies this year,(assuming I have a decent bunch) it will pay to feed the rest of my animals and maybe have a bit left to buy more snakes with. My thought is that I just seeing the cycle of life, etc. The folks with "investment" grade reptiles are taking a big gamble that the demand will live up to their expectations for the morph. Usually, it seems the first to come up with a morph make a lot of money, but the more breeders there are available, the less profitable it is...again based on the demand vs. supply hmmm and i hate microeconomics in college. ***john smacks himself for saying supply and demand*** heh

 

[SevierSerpents]

Because the market fluctuates.

Take a look at today's marketing model. Use KingSnake, for example. The same ads seem to last for days, weeks, months, etc. The smart breeders take a look at that and sometimes make the decision to give their animals a year off from breeding. This gives them additional time to liquidate the neonates instead of focusing on another breeding season. When people get desperate, they may start to wholesale things off in lots. As a seller though, you have to be careful about things like that. The market is delicate, and over-saturation can quickly crash the model and evaporate value in what you (and everyone else) offers. That gap in selling can diminish your internal finances, if you are relying on that as a sole source of income. Feast or famine is quite often the scene.

If one is truly going to look into being a full time seller, a background in marketing and business management is usually a good start. That's not enough though for success. The problem is that most sellers really don't know what they're doing and more importantly, they don't understand their product. Look at a consumer retail store. Do the people in the home audio department REALLY know about what they're selling? A fraction of the percentage might. Car salesmen. Do they truly know the ins and outs of the vehicles they're selling?

Know your product.

Know your customer.

All that being said, and the soap box being kicked aside, we are the first to admit that this is a learning experience for us. And we're proud to learn something new and to learn from others who share their knowledge. Full time job? Nah. We both work business professional positions. And will continue to do so until the time is right. It's nice to come home to appreciate something that looks really nice and that makes you happy; not to just come home and check on the "money makers" and treat them as such.

 

[Serpwidgets]

why wouldn't you quit your day job if you have 30 neonates worth 5 grand each?

You'd first have to invest enough ($10,000?) into buying your own, and spend years raising them up so you can breed them.

Find one person who will buy a snake for $5,000, in cash as opposed to "in trade for some other specimen." Ok, now find 2 of those people each and every month. And then convince both of them to give their hard-earned $5000 to you instead of someone else. Since many snakes that are "worth 5,000" can sit on the classifieds for months at a time, I don't think it's a realistic expectation.

what i was wondering is how people are able to breed boas and sell their babies for thousands of dollars each, when they have so many young.

That is a good question. I wonder how many of those snakes ever are actually sold for thousands of dollars, and how many of them are raised to adulthood and bred by the person who bought them. :shrugs:

 

[scottrussell]

now where getting somewhere! the last 3 were exactly what i was looking for. i mean being a novice and new to the hobby i just see this stuff and it just looks too good to be true you know? so i just had to ask some people with experience (you guys) to fill in the gaps as to what ACTUALLY happens. and with that said if no one wants to buy 50 albino boas that cost a grand each why can't they just sell them for a few hundred...that way i can get one. this is all stemming from wanting an albino boa really bad cause i think they are f-ing sweet. boas seem to get a more reasonable size than the big pythons, i would be able to care for a boa thats 8 feets; i wouldnt be able to care for a python thats 20 :sidestep:

 

[SevierSerpents]

Being an albino boa breeder ourselves (along with a myriad of other morphs), I wouldn't count on seeing an albino boa for just "a few hundred dollars". You said it yourself; albinism has been around in the market for 10+ years, and the prices are still fairly high. You might get lucky enough to find a surplus sale of lower graded animals for around $650 on up. Be wary though of getting what you pay for. Odds are, if someone is publicly offloading for that price, it may be a sign that they are in desperate need to make money. Take a moment to think; If they're in such desperate need to make money, do you really think that they have the financial capability to properly care for the animals that they do have in the meantime? Something's going to get skimped on, somewhere.

Now, one can easily put that issue aside and just be thankful that they got a "good deal". But when it comes to high quality investment-grade animals, you truly will get what you pay for. Don't get me wrong, there are those out there that just want what they're looking for; something different, for the cheapest means possible. And getting a common albino boa, for example in this case, is fairly easy and might be abnormally inexpensive. But getting something that has been selectively bred for whatever traits, whether they be visually or genetically, is going to take more resources (both time, and finances). One should be prepared for that. Both as a buyer, and a seller.

 

[Jynx]

It all started with general knowledge of sales techniques. A product is only worth what someone will pay for it... and someone decided to pay $10,000 for an albino boa or $50,000 for an albino Ball python. It is getting ridiculous, but it also sets the standard that unfortunately many breeders have to adhere to in order to be successful.

When butters stripes first came to the market, they were posted for about $1500 I believe. What would happen if someone came out of nowhere and offered a butter stripe for $100? Can you imagine how many attacks that person would have to face? Not to mention, no matter how quality their lines were, thair reputation as a breeder would be forever scarred. As breeders, we set the market, but we also have to go by it to some extent as well. And as long as people will continue to pay high prices for those morphs, they will still be offered at those prices. The high prices draw people that want to make money. They buy the babies, and in the time that it takes to grow them up, the market on that particular animal has dropped because 10,000 other people have decided to do the same thing. They want to know why they can only sell this animal for $900 instead of $3000.

It is reciprocating, and it always will be. That's why I always say that anyone going into this strictly for money will most certainly fail.

Personally, when deciding what to buy and what to pay for it, I go by preference. Chances are, I wouldn't buy a caramel even if it was offered for sale at $15 because I don't like caramels. I would however, gladly pay $300 for a nice amel stripe because I like them. Of course, thats not how the market works. I personally think that amel stripes are fantastic, but imagine me trying to sell them for $300. I would get spat on! Same thing with a lot of other morphs. A recent topic has been Glaciers, and that the price asked for an adult female was $1000. I wouldn't pay it. I personally don't find too much of an appeal in Glaciers aside from their genetics being nice to have in one snake, but only for the purpose of other breedings. Even though I *may* have one, I wouldn't have paid more than what I paid for her, which was about $40.

Alot of the market is determined by the general consensus unfortunately, no matter how many "here and there" people disagree.

 

[Joker]

Woo Hoo! Excelent responses. I would have to agree with them 100%. The people that have made the big money have usually been in the first few to have that morph. Its all a gamble in breeding even if they are normal ordinary cornsnakes or pythons or boas. BUt the bigger the gamble the potential pay out is better too. although I think more people lose this game than win at it. I wouldnt leave my job or hope to do this for a living at the moment. But then again just may have a gamble or two going as well so we will see if we win or lose I guess. Oh yeah I should also add that we do not have the high end animals others have too. To date we are still well below the $1000 mark per animal. Not ready to gamble that much yet.
Josh

 

[SevierSerpents]

What would happen if someone came out of nowhere and offered a butter stripe for $100?

:sidestep:


High-risk investments are just those; risk-investments. Nothing guaranteed to payout. Josh is right to point out, along with others, that the sooner one is to producing something less commonly available, the higher the average value payout may be. Yet things do tend to taper off. I think we are one of maybe 4 potential Motley Albino boa producers this next season. 3 seasons after that, and the list will likely have multiplied 5 fold. So goes the game. Though as also pointed out, a lot of breeders are here today, gone tomorrow...anyone can be next.

:shrugs:

 

[colinmcc]

I managed to hatch out just over 40 eggs last year.

At first I thought, great! ... I'll make a few quid (bucks to the Americans) here. I've only ever hatched one clutch a year before ... 10 hatchling tops. My local place, where I get all my food and supplies for the snakes, has always taken then off me.

They took the first clutch this year ... fine, no problems. Clutches two and three produced all normals though (testing the genetics of first time breeder females). Then the usual shop couldn't take them as they had baby corns coming out of their ears by then.

Not so good.

Put ads on a few sites online .... response was VERY slow.

In the end I phoned every pet shop within 50 miles of where I live finding out who sold reptiles. Managed to find two that seemed OK and offloaded the rest of the hatchling to them.

However .... I was lucky. I really didn't think it would be that hard to get rid of them.

Plus .... I now have total respect for big breeders (I'd never given it much though before). I never had more than about 35 snakes on the go (30 odd hatchlings and 5 adults) but it was quite a lot of work just feeding and maintaining them for the three or four weeks I had them all.

By the time they went, I'd had enough!

One female then double clutched just after I'd sold off the last of the hatchlings. We were due to be on holiday when the eggs would have been hatching .... plus .... I'd had enough by then. I gave them to my local place to incubate ... free. They all hatched out OK apparently.

I made enough money to buy a couple more vivs though and treat me and the wife to nice meal and a night out. I also found a couple more places fairly local to me that do snakes. So, it's not all bad.

In short .... if you do breed them .... try and make sure you have somewhere to place them or be prepared to house and maintain them all for as long as you need to.

This year I only plan on breeding one female! (anery to an amel het for anery/snow)

I should probably re-read all that to check the spelling but it's bedtime now .....

 

[bitsy]

Had a similar problem to Colinmcc last year. I usually sell to a shop. When the first clutch were laid, I checked that they were still wanted - they were very keen. Checked a couple more times during incubation - all still fine. Eggs hatched, most started feeding and.... all of a sudden, shop not so keen. One of the dealers they usually sold on to had decided to breed their own Corns without telling anyone so my shop had a few hundred more than they could cope with at the time.

Luckily I posted my woes on a UK forum and was contacted by another shop. It was 100 miles away, but by pure chance another forum member local to me was due to make a delivery to them so I had a responsible courier.

At that point, I put the second clutches of eggs in the freezer.

A few weeks later, my local shop asked me if I had any more Corns, as they'd had an unexpected demand and were now short. They've been asking about my problem feeders ever since and are more than keen to get their hands on the Normal, Amel and Anery that I've managed to get eating. The shop now reckons that last year was their busiest ever for Corns - they shifted over 10,000. They've also said they'll take every hatchling I can produce in 2006. Of course now I shall hedge my bets and maintain contact with the shop 100 miles away, who also want all I can produce.

So it all goes to show that supply and demand is a really tricky balance to strike. Sometimes you need to be psychic to see which way it's going and even the professionals get it wrong some years.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

It seems to me like the money most of us make just covers the cost of 'supporting the habit' from what I have read so far. I encountered the same kind of thing as colin and bitsy, had to call around, have found new places to sell this year but I'm happy if my snakes pay for themselves without a big profit margin.
Sure some of you guys with bigger outfits may be making more but to me having a huge amount of snakes to look after would become more work than fun.
Even if I had a brand new morph I wouldn't quit my day job, there's no guarantee they would all survive, be fertile, and be something other people would want.