Brokering animals........

[Rich Z]

This has been bugging me for a while, so I thought I would throw the question out into the public to see what you all think about it.

Several years ago, I ran low on snow corns and anerythristics, so I bought a few from some other breeders so I could fill my orders. I also had my eyes peeled for Blood Reds as well, but had no luck finding them.

For some reason I felt guilty about this. I guess I felt like people were buying snakes from ME, and that implied they wanted animals that I had personally produced myself. But I know for a fact that a lot (if not most) of the other breeders do this and apparently their sales are strong enough that this doesn't bother the buyers at all.

So let me ask you all: Do you have a problem buying animals from a breeder that the breeder did not actually produce themselves?

Heck, let me set up a poll for this.............

 

[Kat]

I sort of have mixed views on this. When I buy from someone like you, Don, or Kathy, I'm buying because of the reputation of you and your animals. I would be upset to learn that animals I bought from one of you guys were not produced by you guys. I could also see someone being particularly upset if they'd bought a brokered animal from you that they didn't know was brokered, and it turned out to be an emoryi cross. (I'm not anal about emoryis, though I like to know what I'm getting... this is just an example.)

When I buy from Joe Average dealer, I don't know that they bred or raised their animals themselves, nor do I particularly care that much (so long as the animals are healthy and are the type I bought them as).

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't feel it's right that people who buy from you guys who are known for your quality and whatnot should wind up with corns which were not produced by you. When people order from SerpenCo, they expect animals that were produced by SerpenCo, from SerpenCo breeding stock. When people order from Joe Average, they expect the animal to be as advertised, but they don't care whether Joe himself produced them, or Joe bought them from Fred, so long as the snakes are healthy and what they were told they were (IE: if Joe sells them as het amel, they better be het amel).

If I were looking for just any ol' Anery, I wouldn't be buying from someone like you. There are lots of snakes out there that meet the criteria of 'anery' that are being sold for less.

About the only excuse I can see for brokering animals is if the person is told before purchase that said animals were NOT produced by SerpenCo.

That having been said, I'm now curious... I bought some '00 corns from you in early 2001, two anerys and a snow. Were they really your snakes or just cheap imitations?

 

[Rich Z]

Kat,

What you are saying has been my gut feeling as well, but I don't want to assume that I think exactly like everyone else.

As for your snakes, when I purchased those snows and anerys for resale, that was quite a while ago (mid to late '90s?), so yours were produced by me.

I think you would be absolutely shocked at the number of 'breeders' that have bought animals for resale. I am astonished myself at the number of calls I get from people that will tell me that they have a show coming up and want to know what I have available that they can take to the show and sell there. But I thought maybe I was just missing something. I seemed to be the odd man out with my thinking about this.

Thanks.

 

[Alicia]

I would at least want it disclosed that the animal I was interested in had not been produced by the breeder I was pruchasing from. Then I could at least have the opportunity to make an informed decision.

 

[Kat]

Sorry if I came off a little harsh on that post, but seriously... people do buy from you because they want SerpenCo snakes... there's quality implied there, and while there are probably some buyers out there who just want 'a cornsnake' and don't care about its lineage, there are likely an equal to greater number who buy from you specifically due to the reputation of your stock.

I know most breeders at shows will sell stock produced by other people, and while I'd rather they told buyers if a snake wasn't theirs, it's not nearly as big a deal if we're talking a big named breeder of that species. I ask most breeders if they bred their snakes themselves, or if they got them from elsewhere (and if so, how long have they had them). I don't ask that question of you, Kathy, or Don because I assume that any snake sold by one of you was produced by one of you. I expect you guys to be honest about that sort of thing. It's disturbing to find out that's not the case all the time. :/

I guess I expect you guys to set an example for the rest... After all, you three are supposed to be the best in the business. Being such means that people are going to hold you to a higher standard than the rest.

 

[Darin Chappell]

OK Rich,

What if you ran low on lavs and had to buy some from another breeder? Are they still your snakes, since we all know that the available lavs are all descended from your efforts anyway? Quite frankly, even if I buy a lav, amber, caramel, or butter from someone else, it seems as if their still your production to me.

I agree witht he idea that when someone buys from you, they are also buying your name along with their animals. SerpenCo MEANS something in the corn business, and if you are reselling an animal that you did not produce, does not come from your bloodlines, and has only "a few days in a shoe box rack" in common with YOUR snakes, then I would think that this ought to be revealed to a potential customer. Somone buying aneries and snows probably wouldn't mind, but I'd let them determine it for themselves.

I buy snakes and resell them. I ONLY buy animals that I am willing to keep and introduce into my own collection as far as quality goes. I do this for two reasons: first, I don't want any animal to be sold by me unless I can proudly tell people that my name is associated with it. second, I may very well have to keep whatever it is because it doesn't sell for some reason! However, people are not as concerned about this practice of mine, because the very reason they are coming to me is for quality snakes at a reduced price. If they wanted to buy a "name" along with their quality, SerpenCo, Corn-Utopia, or South Mountain would be getting the call instead of me.

Because of these differences in the niches large breeders (you) and small breeders (me) fill, I see that there is a difference in the perceptions that some might have in buying animals not produced by the breeder. However, like you, I feel the need to tell every single customer which snakes I produced, and which ones are being resold. That is an ethic that is beyond the number of snakes you have in the racks, in my opinion.

 

[Rich Z]

I was also surprised how many of X's snakes Y has bought to sell to Y's customers. They all think they are getting "Y stock" when they are getting X stock.

I got the above in an email a little while back. Of course, I am hiding the actual names being used, but you get the idea.

On the other hand, I do have to chuckle when I get people emailing me that they want to get a Gumball Phase (just a neutral nonexistant example) from me so that it will be unrelated to the opposite sex they got from 'X' last year. Especially when I know all the Gumballs coming from X were bought directly from me for resale that year. But of course, I can't tell them that. And nor will I ever tell someone something specific like that.

Anyway, the point of all this is to ask pointed questions when making your purchases if the topic of this discussion is of concern to you. The truth, if you can get it, might surprise you.

 

[carol]

I think the difference is in the price and knowing where these animals came from. I think your prices are reasonable however I would not pay as much to get, lets say a lavendar, from someone else as I would from you. So I think you should not only tell the people you didn't breed the animals, but also pass them along at a lower cost. Most of the time I would'nt pay as much for an animal that wasn't from one of the "Big 3". But then again, sometimes I do find a reputable person that is really specializing in a certain morph that I am willing to dish out some more cash (even more that what you charge) to get some from thier line. So I guess you should just disclose the breeder and have the price reflect the reputation of that persons animals.

 

[Rich Z]

Over the last several years, I have found that I don't mind at all telling someone I am sold out of what they are looking for. I guess that bothers some sellers, so rather than tell a potential customer that, they will get some from someone else. There is also the perception that a seller does not want a buyer to HAVE to go somewhere else to make their purchase. I guess that just doesn't bother me any longer. I just tell them, "Sorry, I'm sold out for the season, but if you would like, you could put down a deposit for next year." Either they will or they won't. And it doesn't bother me in the least if they don't because I know I'll probably sell out of them again next year as well.

And yes, I agree with the point that in a situation like this, if I felt the need to I could certainly pick up animals that I would feel were top notch quality and people would be happy with them. But doesn't that just defeat the purpose of being a breeder? There are LOTS of people out there that are brokers and make no bones about it. But you know that up front when you buy from them. When people buy my animals, I get the impression that they want to buy MY animals, from ME as the breeder, and not just SOME animals that came from anybody.

I had a guy from Hong Kong contact me that just wanted to get SerpenCo corns, and jumped through some extraorginary hoops to get them. Ethically, how could I have sold him animals that came from Bob's Tire Emporium and Corn Snake Breeding Facility instead, that I picked up at the last show? The answer is: I can't and I won't.

So like I said, the whole point of this query is to find out if I'm just being anal about this and missing sales because I will insist on selling my own animals I produce myself. I do appreciate the feedback you are all giving me.

 

[jim]

i agree with the general direction of this thread. most of my animals i want to definitely know who produced them. there are some cases where i don't care who produced them. i'll buy brokered animals if it is something that you just don't see for sale everyday or if, like darin said, that the price is discounted sufficiently to draw my interest. i have no clue who produced my diamondback waters, my salt marshes, or even one of my cal kings. with them it really doesn't matter because they just appeared "at the right time". with my corns, variables, and rats i "know" (so i think) where they come from. i like to tell people that "this" came from don or rich or kathy or whoever if i can but when i am happy just to have a particular animal in my collection because i've had to wait until i was able to find them that may lose some importance. i'm getting a pair of intermontanas next week that i've wanted for a LONG time and in this case it wouldn't have mattered if i had to buy them from george bush i'd still get them. thankfully i didn't have to call on george... ---jim

 

[kenster]

Rich,
The way I see it is like this, if you look at all the corn snake adds out there now, most of them have either SerpenCo stock, SMR stock or loves lines in them. I would be more apt to buy snakes from those people beacuse of the quality all 3 of you breed into your snakes. Even if "Criag's Corn Creations" (fake name) had the same snakes at a cheaper price. If I was to spend the money on an opal or a butter stripe from SerpenCo I would not want a brokered snake. I would much rather get a "sorry sold out e-mail" than a non SerpenCo snake in that case. Because you have the ability to sell out of certain snakes proves to me the quailty/time/effort that you put into your animals. Which is why everyone wants a SerpenCo animal. Even though I am very new to the corn scene, i know animals produced by the "big 3" of the corn world are worth every penny spent on them! This was just my .02 cents worth on this...

Ken

 

[Hurley]

I have to go with the above posts on this one. When buying from the "big guns", I do so because I respect their quality of animals, their business practices and knowledge, and because I feel I have a better shot at getting what I want in my purchases. If Rich tells me it is a Mogambuu corn het frosttail...then I feel pretty darn confident that it is.

If I walk down the street to Mac's Cornaramma and Slurpie Supply and see some corn labled Mogambuu het frosttail, my first impression would be, "Shyeah, right. Sure it is." It may be, or not, but the trust isn't there. I just don't trust people at shows, I've seen way too many obviously mislabled corns to trust that anyone I don't know (by reputation or otherwise) even knows corn genetics, let alone know what they have to sell.

For myself, I refuse to sell an animal that I didn't produce as my own breeding. It just seems unethical to me. If I have snakes to resell, then that's how they're sold...as resells. I tell the buyer everything I know about them, who they came from, breeder (if known), as well an any info I've been told about them--but always with the warning "this is what I was TOLD".

I guess I would be very disenheartened to learn that the snakes I got from you or Kathy or Don weren't your own hatchlings...no matter the quality. On the otherhand, I would have no problem with you saying, "I am currently sold out of Jellirotinus corns het fuzzballs this year, but I do have some high quality hatchlings that I didn't produce that I feel are just as good if you would be interested. Otherwise, I can put you on the waiting list for Jellirotini for next year."

I choose which animals to buy from whom (among the big guns) by examples of their "work" that I have seen here and there. Finding out that I got 'frauds' would unsettle me, to some extent. All this being my own humble opinion.

I guess I liken buying from unknown people to buying a horse at auction. What you see is what you get, and anything could go wrong at any time. If I want something specific with the best chance of getting the correct genes and a healthy snake, I go to the best breeders. It's that simple.

 

[Mare]

Well, I voted...

That as long as I knew up front, it didn't bother me. Anything I say would really only be parroting what has already been said.

Rich, for me, buying from either you, Don or Kathy is like buying a Mercedez instead of a VW... I have bought a lot of snakes not really caring where they were from. But recently, I really wanted a particular morph that someone else had that they had gotten from Don. It was a "splurge" for me to get those snakes. I fully intend to buy from you next season, as I get my genetic mind made up - but in buying from you I want the brand name super special awesome snakes that is what makes Serpenco a cut way above so many others.

In saying that, there are other, smaller breeders who are making a name for themselves and even some hobby breeders here on the forum that I have come to know through posts. If I bought a snake from them, I would equally want to know if they produced it.

Good thread...

Mare

 

[Gregg]

I think you're an honorable man, Rich.

I would prefer to get what I asked for, but I'm not gullible enough to think that you, Kathy, and Don wouldn't call on each other if you were unable to produce enough to meet our demands. You all have been doing this for a long time. Some of what you sell came from Kathy and some came from Don. Some of what Kathy and Don sell came from you. Some of the lines y'all produce were produced by others before you, no doubt (e.g., Dr. Bechtel's amel/motley, to name one). At what point is it brokering if y'all borrow from each other, if you run out?

Don't get me wrong: I would prefer to get what I had ordered from the person with whom I had placed the order, but how am I to tell when someone is telling me the truth and when they are not? Especially when they are so far away.

I've never ordered from Don, but I have ordered from you and Kathy because I really like knowing the parental background of the babies I'm getting. This is one way I have--perhaps the only way--of knowing that what I'm getting came from you, or Kathy, and not someone else. (I must admit, however, that Kathy has been more willing to provide this information to me than you have--but who knows, maybe she's just making it all up as she goes along. Sorry Kathy. It's just to prove a point)

My point is this: A person only has the word of the other person whom is making the promise. In business, that most often turns out to be a bold-faced lie. When you want to be honorable in business, you'll usually have to be satisfied with losing money.

I appaud your desire to be honorable, that's why I'm in favor of you telling us that you're sold out.

 

[zandee]

It's good to know when it happens

Hi Rich,
I think folks are right when they say they're expecting quality from you (and other top breeders) which is why they came to you in the first place. When i purchased from you, for example, I expected less inbreeding than a small time breeder might have.

On the other hand, I hate like mad to pay the shipping for two shipments because you might be out of something. So, if I was looking to purchase 3 or 4 snakes, and you had 3 of them available and could get the fourth for me, I'd appreciate being told you could get the other and ship it along with your animals. This is a definite service, as the shipping could really affect the cost for a $50 animal.

My advice would be to go ahead and offer it, but make sure the customer knows what you're offering.

The question you're asking is further proof that your reputation is well deserved.

Jim

 

[Axe]

Peter Weis (the bearded dragon guy) started doing the same thing. He sold off ALL his stock, and is now selling beardies that other people have produced. He's not breeding them himself any more - not that I think Rich will stop producing his own.

I know quite a few people who bought dragons from him a few years ago when he was breeding his own, but since he's reselling other peoples' dragons (and wasn't informing the clients for a LONG time), I don't know a single person who's bought one from him.

Personally, as others have said, when you buy from a specialist breeder, you're buying based on that breeder's reputation.

I'm not saying I wouldn't purchase a brokered animal from Rich, because even if Rich hasn't produced them, I know Rich would not tarnish his own reputation by selling inferior stock (regardless of it's origins).

I would certainly like to know who the breeder was though, just so that if there's any problems, I can possibly contact the original breeder to see if he's experienced this with any of their other snakes/clutches, or if there's any parasites n' whatnot, the right people can be informed so they can check other related stock and get treatment if necessary (although everybody should get a fecal done on any new reptile anyway - although there are things like the adenovirus that don't show up in a fecal, YET).

So if I ordered a snake from Rich and Rich said "Well, I'm sold out, but I've got some available that were bred by X", and told in advance that they weren't bred by him, I could probably live with that, but if I was after a specific bloodline bred by Rich, then at least I'd have the option to say "No thank you" before handing over cash

I don't know if I'd necessarily pay as high for a corn Rich is selling that wasn't produced by him, but that would depend on who the breeder was (if Rich was selling on behalf of the Loves, then sure, I'd pay the regular price).

Personally Rich, I'd say go for it, but I'd definitely inform the potential purchaser who the breeder of the animal was. The customer may have had bad experiences in the past (problem feeders, parasites, mites, etc.) from that breeder, or problems with that breeder's ethical beliefs & standards preventing them from supporting that breeder's business - and there are quite a few reptile breeders I've seen out there who care more about profit than their animals.

 

[Susan]

I'm a small breeder, but getting larger. I have a full-time job and 2 small children, therefore, no time and no money to go to shows and sell my hatchlings myself. I sell my hatchlings wholesale to brokers. My buyers get their hatchlings already sexed, a complete history (D.O.B., feeding and shed records, any problems) and whatever genetic info they want. They can have any potential buyer contact me for any other info (such as lineage) if they want. And I guarantee my hatchlings unless there is a prior agreement, such as poor feeders sold at a reduced price. I don't want to give my buyers the "shaft" because I want them to trust me and to buy my future clutches.

I've purchased snakes from both the "big breeders" and from the "little guys". However, I'll only buy a snake "sight-unseen" from one of the "Big 3", because of their reputation. I would, however, also buy a snake from Rich (or any of the Big 3) if he didn't breed it himself, but told me this beforehand. And the reason, his reputation as well. If Rich decided to broker corns, I would trust his judgement about the quality of those snakes and the honorability of the actual breeder. Dishonest breeders and misrepresented snakes will eventually be discovered.

I would welcome Rich as a broker as I honor him as a breeder.

 

[Clint Boyer]

I suppose.......

I won't mind as long as I was given the option before hand.

BUT!

When I go to a "breeders" site, I go there because they are breeders, not brokers. Maybe the business name should reflect that "Cornsnake breeder and broker".

As a small time hobbyist breeder, I take pride in the snakes I produce. If they are from SerpenCo lines, I represent them as such. If I've been creative and mixed things up a bit, I like to take credit for my ability to 'see' those traits and bring them to the surface. But then, my objective is not to sell, it's to represent my interest and ability as a breeder. (don't get me wrong, the money sure helps!)

Great thread!