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Bronx Zoo

vegabond

New member
So I went to the Bronx Zoo this past week and absolutely loved their reptile house! one thing that surprised me is that they had 2 Diamondback Rattlers housed with a corn snake in a display enclosure about 6'x6'. This brings into question how snakes cope with each other in a cohabitation scenario. I see no true benefit of keeping them housed together, but I can not imagine a zoo doing something "wrong" such as this. How true are the claims of keeping snakes seperate? They had at least 6 other enclosures with two different species living together; all seemed healthy.
 
Thats kind of scary. I don't think corn snakes are immune to venom like king snakes are so that could be dangerous if the corn snake bothers the rattle snakes too much. But I am defiantly not going to take sides on the cohabitation issue, I wouldn't do it but thats just me. ;)


---Kenny
 
Man, I can't believe they would have a corn with rattlers, that just doesn't sound like a responsible thing to do. Like dogstar said, if one of the rattlers decided the corn looked like a nice snack that would be it for the corn. I personally would contact the zookeeper and ask some questions as to why thier together and if there were any other alternatives.
 
I've sent an e-mail to the Public Relations Department at the Bronx Zoo asking them to confirm that they are cohabiting rattle snakes and corns and to have their herpetologists to give us their opinion on cohabitation. I'll post whatever response they provide. :twoguns:
 
Thanks, I live in colorado and was just out in NY for a wedding, so I could not physically go talk to them now.
 
WOW is bad enought having two corns together in one viv how about two different species plus the rettlers are venemous. I hope they only eat meat not corn. I really want to know wat do they have to say about this. They better have a good reason and I can't think of one.

Why? :shrugs:
 
Bronx Zoo Reply

Well, it took a bit of badgering (We retired folks can be a bit of a pain), but here's the response from the PR folks at the Bronx Zoo.

I understand that several members of your club have contacted the Bronx Zoo with a similar concern. Please share with them the following reply from the collection manager of the Bronx Zoo's Department of Herpetology. Thank you. Alison Reiser, Bronx Zoo Communications

In answer to your query concerning our exhibition of multiple snake species, this is done for educational purposes to demonstrate the diversity of species found within a given environment. Although you specifically named our Okeetee exhibit in the Reptile House, where we display a corn snake, eastern diamondback rattlesnake, canebrake rattlesnake, and southern copperhead together, we have several other exhibits with multiple species. For instance, in the same building we have a northeast forest exhibit housing black ratsnakes, timber rattlesnakes, and northern copperheads together, and a SE Asian exhibit with blood pythons and red-tailed ratsnakes. We also have mixed exhibits with reptiles and amphibians (for example gopher snake, Gila monster, and Colorado River toads; giant vine snake and smoky jungle frogs; anaconda and marine toads), and we have exhibited appropriate turtle species with snakes on occasion. In the past we kept eastern box turtles in the Okeetee and northeast forest exhibits.

Again, these are combinations that have an educational purpose, but we are concerned with the wellbeing of our charges and if we had any indication that we were inducing stress on any of these animals, we would correct the situation. Animals that do not feed normally or that spend excessive time in trying to escape are removed from the exhibit. I can tell you that this is very uncommon, but it is something that we pay attention to.

The Okeetee exhibit you are concerned about depicts the southeastern US coastal plain, specifically South Carolina, where these species are commonly found, often in great abundance. In fact, they are often found together, in physical contact with each other near the stump holes in which they communally hibernate. Thus, I do not think we can assume that these animals are under any undue stress because of their proximity to each other. But we will continue to keep a watchful eye on them and we do appreciate your concern.


Well, I guess the "experts" still have something to learn, but it does demonstrate one thing. You do have a voice. When you have questions, ask them. people who depend on the public for their livelihood have an obligation to answer to the public.
 
Just wait until their Okeetee becomes rattler dinner...then they'll be changing their tune. :eek1:

You do have a point, Bill: people do have a voice.
 
I can't believe what I'm reading . I have volunteered at the reptile house at the Bronx zoo. What makes you think you have more knowledge than a world famous wildlife conservation park. Do you know how many scientific papers on herpes have been written from the Bx. zoo reptile dept. William Hmilstorm is wold famous for work done with anaconda's. Go look at The Audubon Society field guide N.A.reptiles and amphibians. See who is the one of the authors is and where he is from. Sham on you all for thinking that you know better than the reptile dept. You keep a couple herpes and think you are experts and gonna question the zoo and how dare they keep them together. You have no knowledge about corns in the wild or wild life of herpes. All the snakes in the wild can be found together under the same piece of tin or board. They all can be found brumating together. They live together . To think that a rattler would bite the corn is total ridiculous. That would be so rare. What do you think rattlers go around and bite everything they see . Man , you guys have the same mentally as the killers that go and catch rattlers in snake round ups every year. All you had to do was some research on the net. There are tons of sites on herpes , some for Field collectors or people that just like to look at herpes in the wild. You would have found out that all the snakes that were together in the same unit live together in the wild. There is place on this forum that you could have went to Natural History/Field Observation . There are plenty of people you could have talked to . I think you owe the Bronx Zoo a apology questioning their judgement. Sorry to be so harsh but I'm appalled by your post in this thread.
 
Vinman said:
I can't believe what I'm reading . I have volunteered at the reptile house at the Bronx zoo. What makes you think you have more knowledge than a world famous wildlife conservation park. Do you know how many scientific papers on herpes have been written from the Bx. zoo reptile dept. William Hmilstorm is wold famous for work done with anaconda's. Go look at The Audubon Society field guide N.A.reptiles and amphibians. See who is the one of the authors is and where he is from. Sham on you all for thinking that you know better than the reptile dept. You keep a couple herpes and think you are experts and gonna question the zoo and how dare they keep them together. You have no knowledge about corns in the wild or wild life of herpes. All the snakes in the wild can be found together under the same piece of tin or board. They all can be found brumating together. They live together . To think that a rattler would bite the corn is total ridiculous. That would be so rare. What do you think rattlers go around and bite everything they see . Man , you guys have the same mentally as the killers that go and catch rattlers in snake round ups every year. All you had to do was some research on the net. There are tons of sites on herpes , some for Field collectors or people that just like to look at herpes in the wild. You would have found out that all the snakes that were together in the same unit live together in the wild. There is place on this forum that you could have went to Natural History/Field Observation . There are plenty of people you could have talked to . I think you owe the Bronx Zoo a apology questioning their judgement. Sorry to be so harsh but I'm appalled by your post in this thread.
Now this might be out of line on my part but it sounds to me like you're attacking the others in this thread. Granted most of us are just hobbyists or even just have snakes as pets but that doesn't mean our opinion doesn't count for anything. Yes, I'm sure these snakes do live in the same areas in the wild. In the wild they also have the ability to get away if they wish where they don't in an exhibit. With all of the talk on here about cohabitation and the repricussions I can see why many (including myself) question keeping different species together. As long as the question was well phrased and polite I see nothing wrong with asking. If we don't ask questions we can't learn and then where would we be? Myself not knowing anything about the Bronx Zoo I would question why a zoo would cohabitate knowing the risks to the animals. I can also see why they do cohabitate for educational reasons but I would also be wary because now someone might go off and think it's ok to house any different species together that have completely different requirements for housing. It's one of those lovely double edged swords. I don't pretend to be an expert but I'd like to think I've learned something over the few years I've been here and I'm sure others feel the same way. Just because we question and have inquiring minds doesn't mean we feel better than others. And also keep in mind it used to believed that the world was flat by the most advanced people in their fields - science changes on a daily basis and what is common practice today might be taboo tomorrow (and that goes for other science things as well - not just snake keeping). Just my .02

~Katie
 
I always wondered why they were kept together, our local zoo used to house them in groups as well so i assumed it must be ok because their the experts. I probably still wouldnt put any together myself. I'm sure they would look out for their reptiles in their collection after all its in their interest. Thats just my opinion for what its worth.
 
PtDnsr said:
Now this might be out of line on my part but it sounds to me like you're attacking the others in this thread. Granted most of us are just hobbyists or even just have snakes as pets but that doesn't mean our opinion doesn't count for anything. Yes, I'm sure these snakes do live in the same areas in the wild. In the wild they also have the ability to get away if they wish where they don't in an exhibit. With all of the talk on here about cohabitation and the repricussions I can see why many (including myself) question keeping different species together. As long as the question was well phrased and polite I see nothing wrong with asking. If we don't ask questions we can't learn and then where would we be? Myself not knowing anything about the Bronx Zoo I would question why a zoo would cohabitate knowing the risks to the animals. I can also see why they do cohabitate for educational reasons but I would also be wary because now someone might go off and think it's ok to house any different species together that have completely different requirements for housing. It's one of those lovely double edged swords. I don't pretend to be an expert but I'd like to think I've learned something over the few years I've been here and I'm sure others feel the same way. Just because we question and have inquiring minds doesn't mean we feel better than others. And also keep in mind it used to believed that the world was flat by the most advanced people in their fields - science changes on a daily basis and what is common practice today might be taboo tomorrow (and that goes for other science things as well - not just snake keeping). Just my .02

~Katie

Sorry, they are attacking the zoo Not only questioning it. Re read all the posts. What make you think that you cant keep diffrent herpes together. It is done all the time. We are not talking a small viv This is a super large aera that they live in and it is about 7 feet tall
 
I figure I better chime in since I started this thread. I was not personally attacking the zoo, I was just trying to gain more knowledge. I realize the herp staff at the zoo has probably a little more knowledge than myself:) I was just a curious since so many believe that putting two corns together, even in a large enclosure, is not wise. I thank Bill for writing to them to get an educated answer, which is a heck of a lot better than just a bunch of us blabbing about what we think is right. Thanks again Bill,
 
vegabond said:
I figure I better chime in since I started this thread. I was not personally attacking the zoo, I was just trying to gain more knowledge. I realize the herp staff at the zoo has probably a little more knowledge than myself:) I was just a curious since so many believe that putting two corns together, even in a large enclosure, is not wise. I thank Bill for writing to them to get an educated answer, which is a heck of a lot better than just a bunch of us blabbing about what we think is right. Thanks again Bill,


I have to be honest I was not talking about your posts. I think you know which ones I'm talking and I think your first post that started this thread was fine. It is the arrogance of some of the post that ERR me. To have the attitude to say the experts have something to learn and so forth .
 
Vinman said:
Sorry, they are attacking the zoo Not only questioning it. Re read all the posts. What make you think that you cant keep diffrent herpes together. It is done all the time. We are not talking a small viv This is a super large aera that they live in and it is about 7 feet tall

I am much amused. I made an inquiry to the Bronx Zoo about cohabiting snakes, I didn't write to the Vatican for comments on the The DaVinci Code.

There have been many divergent opinions on cohabiting snakes in this forum. I thought getting some "expert" input on the subject might benefit this forum. I lived in New York for five years and have frequently visited the Bronx Zoo. I share your respect for them, but not your awe. The Bronx Zoo is not above the scrutiny of the public it serves.

All public zoos rely on private donations for their existence. The Bronx zoo understands this. That's why they gave me the type of reply they did. They did not attack me for making an inquiry. They understand that exchange of ideas is part of the educational process.

And as far as who are the experts on corn snakes, I assure you there at least six (probably many more) people who participate on this site who have more personal, hands on, knowledge of corn snakes than the reptile staff at the Bronx Zoo. We have people here who have bred THOUSANDS of corns. I also know at least three corn snake breeders that have advance degrees and have worked with zoos.

On a personal note, while I don't have a PHD in herpetology, I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. :sidestep:
 
bill38112 said:
I am much amused. I made an inquiry to the Bronx Zoo about cohabiting snakes, I didn't write to the Vatican for comments on the The DaVinci Code.

There have been many divergent opinions on cohabiting snakes in this forum. I thought getting some "expert" input on the subject might benefit this forum. I lived in New York for five years and have frequently visited the Bronx Zoo. I share your respect for them, but not your awe. The Bronx Zoo is not above the scrutiny of the public it serves.

All public zoos rely on private donations for their existence. The Bronx zoo understands this. That's why they gave me the type of reply they did. They did not attack me for making an inquiry. They understand that exchange of ideas is part of the educational process.

And as far as who are the experts on corn snakes, I assure you there at least six (probably many more) people who participate on this site who have more personal, hands on, knowledge of corn snakes than the reptile staff at the Bronx Zoo. We have people here who have bred THOUSANDS of corns. I also know at least three corn snake breeders that have advance degrees and have worked with zoos.

On a personal note, while I don't have a PHD in herpetology, I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night. :sidestep:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
here you admit that you had to Badgering them for a reply

No they did this for PR reasons .
Well, it took a bit of badgering (We retired folks can be a bit of a pain), but here's the response from the PR folks at the Bronx Zoo.


Your attitude after they replyed , As if you know more the the herpitolgist at the zoo

Well, I guess the "experts" still have something to learn, but it does demonstrate one thing. You do have a voice. When you have questions, ask them. people who depend on the public for their livelihood have an obligation to answer to the public.

Attude again two gunes as to say your gona give them hell

I've sent an e-mail to the Public Relations Department at the Bronx Zoo asking them to confirm that they are cohabiting rattle snakes and corns and to have their herpetologists to give us their opinion on cohabitation. I'll post whatever response they provide. :twoguns:

Sorry too much tude toward the zoo.
 
Ok...I think some intentions are getting crossed here. Bill, thanks for writing to the zoo. I think what he meant when he said badgering was that he had to go to a couple people - often times when you write somewhere (like the zoo) you get passed from person to person before you can even think of getting an answer. Others might have written as well but that's just to share knowledge IMO. As long as it wasn't rude I don't see a problem with questioning authority, at least within reason. And to me, asking about cohabitating is within reason. Also Vin, if you read my post I did not once say you couldn't keep different herps together - I said that I question keeping different species together. There is a difference. I personally wouldn't keep them together and wouldn't necessarily advise others to do so but it has and will be done in the future no matter what I say - everyone is entitled to their own opinion about it. Out of curiosity why are you so defensive of the zoo and antagonistic towards anyone "on the other side"? I know for the most part they're pretty good but there are almost always things that could be done differently or done better. No matter what it's always a learning experience if handled the right way.

~Katie
 
PtDnsr i read your post which you did leave it open for question pluse you know I make everything as short as possible. It ll depends on the animals used and the size of the incloser . I mean if there was a chain king snake I could the attitude. But belive after talking to collectors for many years they eaven find kings and corns under the same stuff together. I know that I find eastern milks right next to garters and northen browns.


Now in regaurds to bill and some others Those post are out of line Sorry but Bill cleary admits to bagdering the zoo and after his reply is ( Well, I guess the "experts" still have something to learn, ) and other post after that have the attitude that they know than the Zoo. Come on I know for a fact that you are no fool, you are a smart person Katie. It is clear as day. Read the whole thread every post. It started off good but turned ulgy towards the zoo. It got started to get real ulgy in the post with the reply . If this was me saying these things about the zoo you would have had a field day with it. They cleary have the attitude that the zoo dont know what they are doing!
 
Vinman said:
Now in regaurds (sic) to bill and some others Those post are out of line

OK, I was trying, through humor, to make a point that really grew out of a PM between vegabond and me. The term "badgering" was a reference to a PM between vegabond and me in which I promised him to send a second e-mail to the Bronx Zoo to get us, this forum, a response.

I admit to being a skeptic. I don't accept everything my doctor, my attorney, or my accountant tells me. I've never been afraid to ask a question and make a decision based on the best data I can get. You may think that arrogant. I think that informed.

I stand by my current opinion, which can be changed given sufficient empirical data, that it is better to keep corn snakes separately. And, yes, I trust the opinion of those experienced breeders on this forum more than I do the PR department at the Bronx Zoo.

One last thing, disagree with me all you want, but don't call me names. That isn't in the spirit of this forum and gets us no where.
 
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