Hello to all. I have completed my outdoor herps room. it is complete with all i need including a climate control system. My intent is to move my collection of Corn Snakes into it. I have 22 adults, 9 yearlings and 65, 03 babies. This winter i will maintain a temp of between 60-65 degrees f. Because i live in South Florida, that means the air conditioner will be on alot more then the heat will. I will control the light, as i have read to duplicate winter. My main question is as follows. The adults should benefit from the brumation period. But what about the young ones, is brumation benefical to them, or am I asking for trouble. I do have options. I just received my heated and lighted rack systems from The Boaphile. Even though the room will be cold and dark, I should be able to maintain a temp of 70 to 85 in the racks I chose by using the heat and or lights built into the rack sysyem. Anybody ever brumate babies? Thanks again REG
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BRUMATION OF THE LITTLE ONES
- Thread starter REG
- Start date
I've brumated California king snake babies. No problems.
I would not expect problems brumating corn snake babies if they are well fed. Poor feeders might have a problem. OTOH, even with good feeders you are losing two months or so of feeding and growth. A nonfeeding period might be desirable or undesirable, depending on your situation.
I would not expect problems brumating corn snake babies if they are well fed. Poor feeders might have a problem. OTOH, even with good feeders you are losing two months or so of feeding and growth. A nonfeeding period might be desirable or undesirable, depending on your situation.
i would not
brumate yearlings or babies...you need them to get big soon if you want to breed them...brumation is good and its good to help them mate...but i guess you do not want to mate yearlings unless they are as big as the adults...then there is a different between male and female...i really wound not recomment females being mated the second year, they have a higher chance to being eggbound cause they are just a little to small or not ready, yes they can mate for sure...but the eggs still have to come out...
in my case i had a yearling mate this year by accident and she laid a total of 7 eggs in which only 3 were vertile at first sight... but they were not, so why take the risk...let them grow!!till adulthood then mate them...it seems to me you have enough snakes to breed this year.,...why take a chance...
so my advice shortly(i am always a bit long cause my english isnt that good)
dont brumate untill 2 year...untill then feed them as much as possible!!
mariska
brumate yearlings or babies...you need them to get big soon if you want to breed them...brumation is good and its good to help them mate...but i guess you do not want to mate yearlings unless they are as big as the adults...then there is a different between male and female...i really wound not recomment females being mated the second year, they have a higher chance to being eggbound cause they are just a little to small or not ready, yes they can mate for sure...but the eggs still have to come out...
in my case i had a yearling mate this year by accident and she laid a total of 7 eggs in which only 3 were vertile at first sight... but they were not, so why take the risk...let them grow!!till adulthood then mate them...it seems to me you have enough snakes to breed this year.,...why take a chance...
so my advice shortly(i am always a bit long cause my english isnt that good)
dont brumate untill 2 year...untill then feed them as much as possible!!
mariska
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
I respectfully disagree with Mariska!
In my experience (20 plus years keeping/breeding snakes) I find NO issue with brumating any snake that would usually have to do so in the wild. For years and years I used to brumate every snake I owned, regardless of age. I have brumated hundreds of hatchlings. My main point of contention with Mariska's advice is her advice on poor feeders: poor feeders (read persistant regurgers, or hatchlings stuck on pinkie parts) die roughly 75% of the time kept warm, around 50% if brumated. I know a breeder who brumates with a 'fridge in mid-summer for a month to jump-start his puker hatchlings, with very respectable results.
Secondly, the most surprising thing is the growth difference between a snake kept warm and one put down. Slight, at best! I put some down every year just to cut down on feeding/chore time, and the brumated snakes very often surpass those "kept up" during their usual naptime. And they ALWAYS eat better come spring than those I tried to grow through winter. In no way am I attacking Mariska or her advice, but it is entirely contradictory to my own experience, and those of my experienced herper buddies.
In my experience (20 plus years keeping/breeding snakes) I find NO issue with brumating any snake that would usually have to do so in the wild. For years and years I used to brumate every snake I owned, regardless of age. I have brumated hundreds of hatchlings. My main point of contention with Mariska's advice is her advice on poor feeders: poor feeders (read persistant regurgers, or hatchlings stuck on pinkie parts) die roughly 75% of the time kept warm, around 50% if brumated. I know a breeder who brumates with a 'fridge in mid-summer for a month to jump-start his puker hatchlings, with very respectable results.
Secondly, the most surprising thing is the growth difference between a snake kept warm and one put down. Slight, at best! I put some down every year just to cut down on feeding/chore time, and the brumated snakes very often surpass those "kept up" during their usual naptime. And they ALWAYS eat better come spring than those I tried to grow through winter. In no way am I attacking Mariska or her advice, but it is entirely contradictory to my own experience, and those of my experienced herper buddies.
I THINK
Thanks, I think Mariska thought i wanted to mate the young ones earlier in age. Actually my intent is exactly what Chip said, cut down on feeding and chore time. I would like to do a little fishing in the winter. What I gather from the replies,it is O.K. to let the little ones nap for a little while. I am not looking to power feed nor power breed them. Thanks REG
Thanks, I think Mariska thought i wanted to mate the young ones earlier in age. Actually my intent is exactly what Chip said, cut down on feeding and chore time. I would like to do a little fishing in the winter. What I gather from the replies,it is O.K. to let the little ones nap for a little while. I am not looking to power feed nor power breed them. Thanks REG
TripleMoonsExotic
I <3 Stripes!
I only burmate my adult breeding snakes. I've never seen any need to go through the process of burmateing the little ones (then again, I'm not worried about taking a "winter break" and freeing up more time away from my herps).
CornCrazy
What's one more???
Chip...I have a few questions about brumating my snakes. I don't have anywhere near 20 years experience with actually owning snakes, and I have not brumated my snakes during the winter, yet. I am wanting to brumate them this year (at least my yearlings and older).
I have one yearling that I recently acquired that is a little thin. I am afraid to brumate her. Should I hold off on brumating her until next winter?
I also have a pair of 2001 Cal kings that have become quite picky about eating (one hasn't eaten since 9-14). Is this a sign that they are ready to be cooled? And if so, is it OK to brumate them if they haven't eaten in over a month. The one that hasn't eaten since September was quite a chunky boy, and is still pretty big, by the way.
I also have a milk snake that hasn't eaten since 9-28 due to going through the shedding process. Is it OK to go ahead and brumate her?
All of my other yearlings and adults ate 2 1/2 weeks ago, so i am ready to start brumating them. Do you let them go for more than 2 weeks before cooling them? Or is 2 weeks sufficient? I am just afraid that I am going to do something wrong since I haven't done this before.
I think I am almost through with my questions
I do want to ask about brumating hatchlings that are problem feeders. I acquired a bunch from a friend. I have gotten some of them eating (I had 52 total counting my own non-feeders. I now have 32). Anyway, I am considering cooling the non-feeders as well. Do I cool them for less time than I would a yearling or adult? If so, then how long do you recommend?
Well, I guess that is about it for now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm really nervous about this whole brumation thing!
Thanks in advance!
I have one yearling that I recently acquired that is a little thin. I am afraid to brumate her. Should I hold off on brumating her until next winter?
I also have a pair of 2001 Cal kings that have become quite picky about eating (one hasn't eaten since 9-14). Is this a sign that they are ready to be cooled? And if so, is it OK to brumate them if they haven't eaten in over a month. The one that hasn't eaten since September was quite a chunky boy, and is still pretty big, by the way.
I also have a milk snake that hasn't eaten since 9-28 due to going through the shedding process. Is it OK to go ahead and brumate her?
All of my other yearlings and adults ate 2 1/2 weeks ago, so i am ready to start brumating them. Do you let them go for more than 2 weeks before cooling them? Or is 2 weeks sufficient? I am just afraid that I am going to do something wrong since I haven't done this before.
I think I am almost through with my questions
I do want to ask about brumating hatchlings that are problem feeders. I acquired a bunch from a friend. I have gotten some of them eating (I had 52 total counting my own non-feeders. I now have 32). Anyway, I am considering cooling the non-feeders as well. Do I cool them for less time than I would a yearling or adult? If so, then how long do you recommend?Well, I guess that is about it for now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm really nervous about this whole brumation thing!
Thanks in advance!
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
Where to start...
In order of importance, I'll begin with the hatchling non-feeders;
Have all 32 NEVER taken food? If not, try live, scented, deli cups...all the tricks. Should these measures fail, I would brumate them for 4 or 5 weeks, and warm them back up. I'm assuming you have caging to put them back in with good temp regulation. You will see a feeding response in some, others will likely be doomed. Some just weren't meant to live. I've never personally had that many hatchlings refuse food, I'd investigate about other reasons: freezer burned pinks, scent transfer, stress, cold cages or something. 32 of how many are giving you these fits?
The milk and Cal kings should be fine. Not much weight should be lost by a months' time if they were in good condition to begin with. But the shedding process should have been long over and the milk be hungry by now. What are your room and cage temps? The cheapest investment you can make (for how much it helps) is a good digital indoor/outdoor thermometer that will give you two readings, accurate within a tenth of a degree or so. Any hardware store will have them for about twenty bucks. If you don't have one, get one soon. I'm worried about the sheer number of non-feeders you have. If you own 250 snakes, that would seem understandable, but with a modest collection, I tend to think something is going on.
Two weeks should be plenty sufficient for a snake to "clear its' gut" for brumation, assuming temps are warm enough for proper digestion. Let us know a little more about your setup. Good luck.
In order of importance, I'll begin with the hatchling non-feeders;
Have all 32 NEVER taken food? If not, try live, scented, deli cups...all the tricks. Should these measures fail, I would brumate them for 4 or 5 weeks, and warm them back up. I'm assuming you have caging to put them back in with good temp regulation. You will see a feeding response in some, others will likely be doomed. Some just weren't meant to live. I've never personally had that many hatchlings refuse food, I'd investigate about other reasons: freezer burned pinks, scent transfer, stress, cold cages or something. 32 of how many are giving you these fits?
The milk and Cal kings should be fine. Not much weight should be lost by a months' time if they were in good condition to begin with. But the shedding process should have been long over and the milk be hungry by now.
What are your room and cage temps? The cheapest investment you can make (for how much it helps) is a good digital indoor/outdoor thermometer that will give you two readings, accurate within a tenth of a degree or so. Any hardware store will have them for about twenty bucks. If you don't have one, get one soon. I'm worried about the sheer number of non-feeders you have. If you own 250 snakes, that would seem understandable, but with a modest collection, I tend to think something is going on. Two weeks should be plenty sufficient for a snake to "clear its' gut" for brumation, assuming temps are warm enough for proper digestion. Let us know a little more about your setup. Good luck.
CornCrazy
What's one more???
I personally only had 14 non-feeders. They were very tiny hatchlings. I also had trouble with their mom this year...she didn't bounce back very well...kept regurging. I am wondering if her problems had anything to do with the health of the babies. Maybe her problems started when she was still producing the eggs so the babies suffered too??? Needless to say, she won't be bred next year. I may try her again in a couple of years to see if she does any better. She did great last year; and she seemed very healthy before breeding this year.
The rest of the snakes (38) were given to me by someone else. He had no luck with them eating. Some of them had gone for 2-3 months without eating before I got them. I am afraid that some of them are too far gone to save. I am afraid that others are conditioned to "not eat" now. I have gotten 13 of the ones from my friend to eat and a few have died already.
As for the milk snake, I am sure she is ready to eat. She went into blue phase a day before feeding day. She took a little longer to shed this time so she ended up missing two feeding days. I was going to feed her along with the rest of the snakes at their normal feeding time...which would have been this past Sunday. I have since decided to brumate everyone so I wasn't sure if I should go ahead and feed her again or put her straight into brumation since her gut was already empty. Do you think it would be best for me to feed her one more time, then brumate her?
I do not have a good digital thermometer right now, but I do have thermostats on all of my racks. I had one, but it got dropped in some water and was ruined. I was planning on getting another one this week. Up until that happened (a couple of weeks ago), all of my temps were fine. I will get the thermometer tomorrow so I can be certain that my temps are still fine.
The rest of the snakes (38) were given to me by someone else. He had no luck with them eating. Some of them had gone for 2-3 months without eating before I got them. I am afraid that some of them are too far gone to save. I am afraid that others are conditioned to "not eat" now. I have gotten 13 of the ones from my friend to eat and a few have died already.
As for the milk snake, I am sure she is ready to eat. She went into blue phase a day before feeding day. She took a little longer to shed this time so she ended up missing two feeding days. I was going to feed her along with the rest of the snakes at their normal feeding time...which would have been this past Sunday. I have since decided to brumate everyone so I wasn't sure if I should go ahead and feed her again or put her straight into brumation since her gut was already empty. Do you think it would be best for me to feed her one more time, then brumate her?
I do not have a good digital thermometer right now, but I do have thermostats on all of my racks. I had one, but it got dropped in some water and was ruined. I was planning on getting another one this week. Up until that happened (a couple of weeks ago), all of my temps were fine. I will get the thermometer tomorrow so I can be certain that my temps are still fine.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
Good job, Terri
Sounds like you are doing everything right. I doubt the mother's regurge issues would pass on to the hatchlings unless you have a medical issue. Necropsy's are pretty inexpensive; I'd bring in the next hatchling that doesn't make it, just to count out any pathogen. Like I'd mentioned earlier, if I'm ever in the area, I'll be happy to see your collection.
I'd also get some background on the struggling hatchlings that you got. All but a few healthy corns eat well right out of the egg. You can usually expect some to give you trouble, but I wonder how many the guy had who sent you 38... maybe proper warmth and care can fix it, maybe not. But I'd certainly ascertain that there is no disease, get temperature ranges correct, try every feeding trick in the book, and if all that fails to give answers or get them jump-started, short-term brumation might snap some out of it. To safeguard yourself I wouldn't drop below 50 degrees for a minute for those, if they are weak they may never wake!
Sounds like you are doing everything right. I doubt the mother's regurge issues would pass on to the hatchlings unless you have a medical issue. Necropsy's are pretty inexpensive; I'd bring in the next hatchling that doesn't make it, just to count out any pathogen. Like I'd mentioned earlier, if I'm ever in the area, I'll be happy to see your collection.
I'd also get some background on the struggling hatchlings that you got. All but a few healthy corns eat well right out of the egg. You can usually expect some to give you trouble, but I wonder how many the guy had who sent you 38... maybe proper warmth and care can fix it, maybe not. But I'd certainly ascertain that there is no disease, get temperature ranges correct, try every feeding trick in the book, and if all that fails to give answers or get them jump-started, short-term brumation might snap some out of it. To safeguard yourself I wouldn't drop below 50 degrees for a minute for those, if they are weak they may never wake!
CornCrazy
What's one more???
Ummm...actually I got all of his non-feeders. I went to pick them up as well. The snakes were kept in a "warm" room. I honestly don't believe that temps had anything to do with the number of non-feeders. Everything seemed fine when I picked up the little ones. I do not think it is a husbandry issue.
I do think it is kind of strange that there were that many non-feeders, but I don't have a clue as to why.
I will definitely continue working with them, though!
On a positive note, I got a hypo lav non-feeder and two gorgeous "X" patterned non-feeders from him as well. They are 3 of the ones that I managed to get to eat
I do think it is kind of strange that there were that many non-feeders, but I don't have a clue as to why.
I will definitely continue working with them, though!
On a positive note, I got a hypo lav non-feeder and two gorgeous "X" patterned non-feeders from him as well. They are 3 of the ones that I managed to get to eat