candycane x snow

[Swe_Corn]

Hi , my candycane female and Snow male got together in februari so i´m expecting eggs in the future...

so what offspring might show up?

the candu female comes from candy parents and the snow as well so no known hets

I had a theory that the white in background colour would pass on to the juveniles but i dont know if theres a truth in this...

 

[tyflier]

Candycane is an amel, snow is amel + anery, so the offspring will be 100% amel het. anery, unless you have unknown hets going on.

 

[Jimmyman28]

Candycane is an amel, snow is amel + anery, so the offspring will be 100% amel het. anery, unless you have unknown hets going on.

Yup! :crazy02:

 

[tbtusk]

That's the non-selectively bred genetics, but the "white background" of candycanes (if that's what you meant) is selecively bred so... That white back ground is selectively bred through many generatins, so that coloration will probably not show up at all in the off spring, and if it does then it won't be nearly as obvious as it is in the candycane. Besides that you'll get some amel het anerys as said above.

Good luck on the eggs and hatchlings!!

 

[Swe_Corn]

...

Okey thank you , no they dont have any hets that i´m aware of... maby a stupid question but does the anery genes always hang on to snows? if u know what i mean?

 

[tyflier]

Candycanes are "line-bred" amels, which means once you cross it with a different "looking" amel, like a reverse okeetee(also line-bred), you lose that specific look, and it will take many generations for the "looks" to come back into play.

However, a candycane is also a simple amelanistic, so breeding it with a snow will provide "normal amels" het. anery a. Don't expect the offspring to look like the candycanes. It is possible, but exceptionally unlikely...

It would be like breeding an okeetee to a miami. You will get normals. Both miami's and okeetees are "phases" of a normal cornsnake(let's not get into localities in this thread, please. I know there is a difference, but it's not the right place), so breeding them to each other isn't going to give you "miami okeetees" in the f1. It will take many generations of back-breeding, if at all, to achieve a good example of a miami okeetee.

 

[tyflier]

Okey thank you , no they dont have any hets that i´m aware of... maby a stupid question but does the anery genes always hang on to snows? if u know what i mean?

A snow corn is homozygous for anerythrism type A and amelanism. This means that it has 2 copies of each recessive gene, amel and anery. When this snake produces offspring, it will pass 1 copy of each recessive gene to ALL of it's offspring. If a snake is heterozygouse for amel, it contains 1 copy of the "wild-type" gene and one copy of the recessive gene.

An amelanistic cornsnake would have "aa" at the amelanistic locus in it's genetic code. A normal het. amel would have "Aa" at the same locus.

An anery corn would have "bb"(I'm, just using the letter b. I forget what it is actually assigned as). A normal het. anery would have "Bb".

So, a candycane would look like this-"aaBB", since it is really just an amel, and a snow would look like this-"aabb", since it is homozygous for both amel and anery. So, if you take one letter at each locus from each parent, you end up with 100% of your offspring looking like this-"aaBb", which would be an amel het. anery.

So to answer your question, yes...a snow will ALWAYS pass the anery gene to it's offspring, because it is homozygous for the anery gene.

 

[tbtusk]

Candycanes are "line-bred" amels, which means once you cross it with a different "looking" amel, like a reverse okeetee(also line-bred), you lose that specific look, and it will take many generations for the "looks" to come back into play.

However, a candycane is also a simple amelanistic, so breeding it with a snow will provide "normal amels" het. anery a. Don't expect the offspring to look like the candycanes. It is possible, but exceptionally unlikely...

It would be like breeding an okeetee to a miami. You will get normals. Both miami's and okeetees are "phases" of a normal cornsnake(let's not get into localities in this thread, please. I know there is a difference, but it's not the right place), so breeding them to each other isn't going to give you "miami okeetees" in the f1. It will take many generations of back-breeding, if at all, to achieve a good example of a miami okeetee.

That's what I was trying to say. And line-bred is the same as selectively-bred escencially, right?

 

[tyflier]

That's what I was trying to say. And line-bred is the same as selectively-bred escencially, right?

Sort of...to my understanding...

"Selective breeding" refers to breeding for specific traits, regardless of whether those traits are recessive gene or multiple-gene. Breeding an anery het. amel X amel het. anery in the hopes of getting snows is still selective breeding, because you are breeding based solely on the outcome of the combined genes, whether or not those genes are simple recessive.

"Line-breeding" refers specifically to breeding in search of multiple gene combinations, such as an Abbot's okeetee X Love okeetee to produce okeetee phase corns. Or miami X miami ion search of the "quintessential miami".

At least...this is how I understand the terms. It may be thought of differently by people who are more knowledgable than I am, and if so, I certainly hope they correct me. But this is how I understand the terms...

 

[tbtusk]

got it. Thanks

 

[Swe_Corn]

...

Oh thank you very much for the answers !

 

[Nanci]

Here are a few definitions of linebreeding:

When two related individuals are mated together and the resulting offspring carries less than 50% of any common ancestor in its pedigree.

A scheme that attempts to maintain a high contribution of one or two ancestors through successive generations. Often used by breeders for any inbreeding less intensive than between first-degree relatives.

A system of breeding in which a number of genotypes, which have been progeny tested in respect of some characters, are composited to form a variety.

Mating of individuals with a common ancestor some generations removed, with the purpose of accentuating particular features.

Nanci

(I don't know where snake breeders draw the line, but in dogs or horses, a breeding between first degree relatives, mother/son, father/daughter- would be called inbreeding, but second degree relatives, grandfather/granddaughter etc would be called linebreeding.)

 

[tbtusk]

Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for the info.

 

[Velvet]

Hi there,

This is a corn that is RO x Candy Cane...it doesn't look anything like a normal Amel to me...

 

[tbtusk]

The person who posted that picture did mention that was an F2 (allowing the breeder to choose the most interesting snakes and breed them a second time to create a more intense pattern), but you're right that ro x candycane creates a very strange looking snake.

It is apperant the creation of the RO pattern and the creation of the Candycane pattern require some, or all of the same genes, meaning that those gene's still show an efect of the animal when ro is crossed with candycane. Because of these appearently shared gene's you do NOT get a normal amel. That is extreemly interesting to me, as that cross, I think, has never been done before and hints at some pretty interesting genetic similarity's between the 2 sets of genes, candycane and RO, both of which create extra white on an animal.

That definitely does not mean that a normal snow, the color of which is controlled by 2 known genes, bred to a candycane, which has a pattern and color that is controlled by amel as well as many genes that we have not defined (as it is a line-bred pattern and color mutation) will create strange off spring. The genes controlling RO and Candycane are creating a strange pattern because some of the 10's, possibly 100's of genes controlling those patterns are identicle to one another in the 2 patterns. A snow is not homozigous for any other genes besides the known ones (as it is not expressing them), and as we know that a candycane is NOT homozygous for anery (as it i not expressing anery), that gene is unlikely to appear, and the many "candycane genes" are also unlikely to appear because the snow is not homozygous for any of them. This means that the breeding will result in, 99% of the time, normal patterned amels het for anery het for the "candycane genes".

2 line-bred mutations can create strange off spring, but a non-line-bred coloration bred to a line-bred mutation is very unlikely to create interesting off spring.

 

[tbtusk]

And notice on the tale of the snake there is normal RO pattern That's even more interesting to me.

 

[tbtusk]

oops I don't see 2 generation anywhere on that post in "mixing amels". Sorry.

And you posted that, velvet. I didn't realize that. Hey can you get me in contact with your friend so I can get my hands on some!! lol

 

[tyflier]

Hi there,

This is a corn that is RO x Candy Cane...it doesn't look anything like a normal Amel to me...

Forgive me for asking, but what is it that is so different about that particular amel?

I see a really nice, high-white amelanistic hatchling with a partial zig-zag dorsal pattern. Other than that...I still see an amel. A really nice one...but "just" an amel. It is neither reverse okeetee nor candycane in appearance, nor is it what I would expect a "perfect mix" of RO and CC to look like. Perhaps as it matures it may take on a look that is slightly more RO or CC, but, to be honest, I see a really pretty, high-white amel. And nothing more. You can already see the oranges developing, too.

I don't mean that as an insult but...it is a legitimate question.

Cornsnakes cannot be heterozygous for reverse okeetee. They also cannot be heterozygous for candycane. The reason is because these 2 looks are not created with one simple recessive gene. The only thing that can be guaranteed from the breeding of a candycane X a reverse okeeteee is 100% amel offspring.

Yes...some of the offspring MAY resemble one or both of the parents. As we all know...there are no real "guarantees" when it comes to the patterning of offspring. But the potential for the offspring to look like a cross between an RO and a CC is the same as the potential for the offspring of 2 beautiful Okeetee corns to look absolutely normal and not at all like an okeetee. That is...very low. There are simply too many genes at work to make any sort of reasonable estimation when outcrossing a line-bred pattern.

When you take 2 okeetee phase parents, and breed them, you are combining several gene-types which both parents posess. This exponentially increases the probablility that the offspring will inherit the look of the parent. When you combine an RO and a CC, you are combining several gene types that only one of the parents posess, thereby minimizing the potential for the offspring to inherit the look of it's parents.

Since RO and CC corns are both line-bred to be exceptionally high-white amels, it is reasonable to assume that a percentage of the offspring will display a high-white background, because they are getting this gene combination from both parents. Ro tends more towards orange, where CC tends towards red. I would be very interested in updates on that amel as it matures, to say the least...

 

[tbtusk]

Well, I agree, but I'm not sure if this animal is a normal amel, or even a normal high-white amel, like a candycane. It depends what a "normal" one is!! :grin01:

Velvet posted this in a different thread, and if I remember correctly, said that almost all the hatchlings hatched this way. Velvet, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this was a "luck of the draw", one cool hatchling sort of thing. It seems RO x CC = high-white amel zig-zag, however improbable it may be. The chances were slim, but as I said, it appears that RO and CC have to share some of the same genes to allow this to happen.

I agree that the amel could be considered not to be a one-of-a-kind specamin, and be seen as just an amel zig-zag, but I think it is a stunning example of a very strange gene combination creating a very strange pattern. That snake has some wierd genes, and in my opinion, that's the coolest part of all, even though I do think the snake has amazing, possably never-before-seen coloration.

To test your theory, and mine, I suggest that someone get one of these snakes and breed it to another zig-zag that is from a different line, and see what the hatchlings look like. It would be soooo cool if zig-zags popped out. That would mean that some of the 10's or 100's of genes controlling RO and CC are the same genes, at least in part, that control the zig-zag (which also is corntrolled by 10's or 100's of genes)!!!!! :crazy02:

Just my opinion.