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Cause of Colour Variation - Please help!

questionableintent

questionableintent

New member
Does anyone know of any good research on the causes of corn snake colour variation in the wild?
I'm specifically looking for journal articles or sections in any books that may have been published on the topic. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
.... evolution? Certain individuals managed to survive better than others, and subsequently passed on their genes.
 
Okay.
I'll be more specific. I am doing research on something related to this and would need to site a specific source. I was wondering if there was any published research on this topic specifically.
For example, an explanation on why there is natural colour variation in wild corn snakes found throughout North America, specific to region and snake.
A link to a professional publication on the topic would help greatly.
 
again, I don't really know any websites or whatever but it could be that colour variation could be caused by pet snakes that were released into the wild that inter-bred with the wild ones and passed dow some genes.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympatric_speciation

Sympatric speciation. ;) Here's a little blurb I wrote on another forum a while back when someone asked for my take on it.

If you want to look at it in terms of snakes, one can look at common rat snake species throughout all parts of the world and see examples of it. Even in the US, corn snakes are widely varied in their range. From Key West all the way up to New Jersey, there are several different seemingly phenotypically different corn phases. Lower keys corns, Upper keys, Miami, Okeechobee, Carolina, Alabama, Okeetee, etc are all phases of the same species. HOWEVER, they were not always the same species. Upper Keys and Lower Keys corns were previously their own species when the taxonomical classification system still used elaphe for most rat snake species. Just in corn snakes, there was elaphe guttata guttata, elaphe guttata slowinskii, and elaphe guttata rosacea. These different species had adapted to small variances in their geographical locations (though still within the range of the parent group). With rosacea, they are genetically predisposed to be smaller, and feed on smaller prey items which are more readily available in the southern areas of the Everglades that they come from. Their coloration is also subtly more different to better blend with the "river of (saw)grass". This is, from an evolutionary standpoint, more advantageous than taking on the darker coloration that the slowinskii corns have. It appears that both slowinskii and rosacea developed as sister species to guttata to better fit into certain niches. I could go on, but I'm at work, and getting tired of typing. Also, I think I got off topic at some point. Lol. I also might be a bit wrong on a few parts, so make sure you check the facts.


See? There IS a brain somewhere behind this pretty face! Lol
 
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clickbug2 said:
again, I don't really know any websites or whatever but it could be that colour variation could be caused by pet snakes that were released into the wild that inter-bred with the wild ones and passed dow some genes.
Click to expand...

Nope. That's not even a possible factor. :)
 
questionableintent said:
Does anyone know of any good research on the causes of corn snake colour variation in the wild?
I'm specifically looking for journal articles or sections in any books that may have been published on the topic. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...
What color variation? Really there is no true locale or range color variations. All wild type corn snakes have brown to red blotches ( and everything in-between) & backgrounds that range from silver/greyish to orange (and everything in-between.) Phenotypes like Okeetee, Miami or Alabama are really just man created. This is called “domestic selection.” We have found certain animals in a particular area and then have selectively bred for that type. While it may be true that many corn snakes from a certain area have a particular look I can promise you not all will look the same. For example, Dade county corn snakes are known for their silver/grey backgrounds or “Miami type” color. But I’ve seen many corn snakes caught in this area with very orange backgrounds...and they had a very “Okeetee” look to them. But when one is found with a very silver/grey background it is kept and bred (domestic selection.)
No matter where you find corn snakes you find some with a Miami look and some with Okeetee look and everything in-between. I have some f1’s from N. Carolina that look like very nice examples of Miami corns with silver backgrounds and light orange blotches or saddles....But in the same area the parents of these came from really dark orange/red corns have also been found. So, when someone tells you they have Okeetee type corns or Miami type corns what they are really saying is that they have a type chosen to be selectively bred.....not a range variant.
 
^There certainly ARE tendencies, though. I have hunted Okeetee and much of Jasper county. I have never seen a snake that looked like a Miami around there, out of a sample size of several hundred, counting DORs and babies. I've seen some Dade county w/c corns that didn't look like Miamis, but never an Okeetee-looking snake. And the corns in my area are dull, maroon saddled snakes, almost always. I get your point, but to assume Miami and Okeetee are artificially selected is not accurate. The ones in the hobby might not have a drop of locality blood running through their veins, but they were selected for those colors to fit the name for a reason.
 
Actually I believe that many species have various localities in the wild where, while you can find snakes like what Corn_Oasis is saying, but there is a higher density of certain ones that fit better into a survivability ratio, hence the reason that they are slightly darker in color, smaller in size, or like many of the Alabama corns that I have seen pictures of, have that awesome metalic sheen to them. The ones that survive into adulthood, pass those genes on to the next generation and so on, until more of the individuals have a certain look. That is until a shift in climate or ecology, that leads to the other individuals being more equipt to survive in said area, making the previous dominant look harder to find...

I hope I wasn't too all over the place with that one...
 
Chip said:
^There certainly ARE tendencies, though. I have hunted Okeetee and much of Jasper county. I have never seen a snake that looked like a Miami around there, out of a sample size of several hundred, counting DORs and babies. I've seen some Dade county w/c corns that didn't look like Miamis, but never an Okeetee-looking snake. And the corns in my area are dull, maroon saddled snakes, almost always. I get your point, but to assume Miami and Okeetee are artificially selected is not accurate. The ones in the hobby might not have a drop of locality blood running through their veins, but they were selected for those colors to fit the name for a reason.
Click to expand...
I agree. That's why I said, "While it may be true that many corn snakes from a certain area have a particular look....

What I meant here is that there are range tendencies.
 
Chip said:
^There certainly ARE tendencies, though. I have hunted Okeetee and much of Jasper county. I have never seen a snake that looked like a Miami around there, out of a sample size of several hundred, counting DORs and babies. I've seen some Dade county w/c corns that didn't look like Miamis, but never an Okeetee-looking snake. And the corns in my area are dull, maroon saddled snakes, almost always. I get your point, but to assume Miami and Okeetee are artificially selected is not accurate. The ones in the hobby might not have a drop of locality blood running through their veins, but they were selected for those colors to fit the name for a reason.
Click to expand...
Also, keep in mind that the Okeetee area is a "micro-habitat." In small areas snakes will have closer genetic tendencies. But if you step back and look at the Carolina population as a whole everything from grey to orange backgrounds can be found.
And I have seen many corn snakes wild caught from areas other than Jasper County that look just like a wild caught Okeetee. There is nothing unique about corn snakes found in any one area.
 
There is no such thing as a "Carolina population." That is a HUGE chuck of the entire population of the species. Particularly, here you are talking sea level to 6,000+ feet. Get high enough in the NC mountains and there are no corn snakes, only black rats. If you are talking an area as big as two large states of course you will find everything. But I seem to be arguing with people I agree with today. :)
 
You are correct. But can you tell me how the corn snakes within this locality differ from other corn snake? Can you tell me how the color or pattern of Okeetees differ from.....oh, let's say Devil's garden corn snake from S.W. Florida?

Okeetee or Miami types are not unique to any area.

As Rich Z once said on this forum about Okeetees, "there aint no such thing."
And I agree. :)
 
Then there's no such thing as a corn snake, either.
 
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