Confused about Substrate Issue

[Karoni]

Hi guys. I've been wanting to switch my snakes from newspaper to something more natural looking. I read Philippe de Vosjoli's book, The Art of Keeping Snakes. He seems to favor lamps as a heat source, whereas I prefer UTHs. I'm wondering if it's even possible to keep snakes on a bioactive substrate like he recommends with a UTH. It's been a while since I've read the book, but I believe there are multiple layers involved, including gravel. How the heck can I regulate the temps through all of that?

I know some of you use reptibark or coconut fiber, etc. I was wondering how heat regulation works for you if you use a UTH. How thick do you keep your substrate? Is it bioactive?

I've read on here that both of those substrates have their issues (reptibark: splinters, dusty), eco earth/coconut (a pain to hydrate, can get under snakes scales).

Thanks for any replies.

 

[The Cat]

I use aspen. It's nice and looks natural, and it's easier to spot poop in, too. My snake loves it and she's constantly burrowing into it.

 

[RoseRed]

I've read on here that both of those substrates have their issues (reptibark: splinters, dusty), eco earth/coconut (a pain to hydrate, can get under snakes scales).

I can tell you from using eco-earth for my Brazilian Rainbow Boas, it is not difficult to get the substrate damp and stay that way (actually the problem tends to go in reverse, i.e. holds water way too easily). It can get under scales (but so can dirt in the wild).

When I kept my corns on dried eco-earth I kept it around 1/2 to 1 inch thick.

 

[RoseRed]

I use aspen. It's nice and looks natural, and it's easier to spot poop in, too. My snake loves it and she's constantly burrowing into it.

While I have never used it, I hear it's good.

 

[Nanci]

Ask Robbie- I think he has one bioactive set-up.

 

[Chip]

I have a few of them. Not for snakes, however. They get paper towels for the first 30 feedings and aspen after that.

Phillipe has authored dozens of reptile books covering beardies to red eared sliders, I wouldn't consider him an authority on snake-keeping though. His methods in that book are dated, though would "work" well enough, I suppose. I do dearly miss his magazine, Vivarium.

 

[Nythain]

If you do end up having troubles with the UTH penetrating so many layers of substrate, and it's a glass aquarium style viv, you could probably consider putting the UTH on the side or back wall of the viv. It will warm that side up just the same, you'll just lose out on actual under belly heat. Not the end of the world there, people have been keeping corns and other snakes with overhead lamps for a long time.

 

[smigon]

I use aspen, and it is light and "fluffy" so the snakes can burrow as low to the UTH as the want. It would be MUCH easier to take care of than a substrate with a lot of layers.

I agree, UTHs are much better than heat lamps, snakes don't like to bask, they prefer the heat on their stomachs for better digestion.

 

[Karoni]

Thanks, everyone.

@RoseRed--when you kept them on eco earth, was it bio-active? How often did you change the substrate?

@Nanci--thanks, will do!

@Chip--why don't you do it for your snakes? Would you not recommend it? If you consider his methods dated, what book would you recommend? Do you use UTHs with you bio-active cages?

I don't really understand the draw of aspen. It does not seem natural to me, although reptiles do lay their eggs in mulch piles, etc. It seems like it would be dusty. My vet told me that they've seen a lot of low-grade dehydration on aspen. How the heck do you find the poop in it, anyway? I feel like I'd have to dig through the hole cage looking for the poop. And wouldn't all the crumbled urates (at least it's crumbly on newspaper), end up drifting through the aspen and piling up on the bottom?

 

[Chip]

@Chip--why don't you do it for your snakes?

I like to lay eyes on them every day, and don't want to have to go through an archaeological dig!

Would you not recommend it?

Not for snakes, no. Particularly species with a tendency to burrow, such as corns.

If you consider his methods dated, what book would you recommend?

Don or Kathy's books. https://www.cornsnake.net/books3.html or (scroll to the bottom: http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn Utop...or sale Cornutopia corn snakes cornsnakes.htm

Do you use UTHs with you bio-active cages?

Depends on the species (whether or not they need it)

My vet told me that they've seen a lot of low-grade dehydration on aspen.

I'd wager those keepers didn't stay on top of their water bowls. Literally millions of corns are kept on aspen with no issues, if the corn gets dehydrated, I wouldn't blame the aspen.

How the heck do you find the poop in it, anyway? And wouldn't all the crumbled urates (at least it's crumbly on newspaper), end up drifting through the aspen and piling up on the bottom?

Dark brown fecal matter shows up quite well against light colored aspen. The urates tend to stick to it as well, and most will be removed by spot-cleaning. Obviously, *some* is left behind, but that amount is negligible, and is partly why we do 100% clean outs from time to time.

 

[RoseRed]

@RoseRed--when you kept them on eco earth, was it bio-active? How often did you change the substrate?

I didn't use it specifically for bioactive purposes, just as a normal substrate. But I did have springtails pop up once. Even though they are supposed to help clean up waste and not harm the snake they had to go.. them being bugs and all :madeuce:

I changed it completely every month. Although sometimes every two weeks if it got flooded.

 

[LittleRed]

The first thing I bought was eco-earth. I used it slightly moist but its drying up now especially above the uth. A couple of days later I noticed my snake trying to burrow and I was scared it will go into her nose or mouth so I took some of the substrate out of the warm side and placed ripped up crumbled bits of brown paper(the kind for sack lunches) and she started burrowing in it! I wonder, should I keep using the paper or buy aspen?

 

[smigon]

The first thing I bought was eco-earth. I used it slightly moist but its drying up now especially above the uth. A couple of days later I noticed my snake trying to burrow and I was scared it will go into her nose or mouth so I took some of the substrate out of the warm side and placed ripped up crumbled bits of brown paper(the kind for sack lunches) and she started burrowing in it! I wonder, should I keep using the paper or buy aspen?

I am a fan of aspen, it is easy, cheap, and the corns like it. I don't think it is dusty at all. It is easy to see their poop so you can spot clean, and it is easy to burrow in.

 

[xoxocammyxoxo]

I have always used aspen for all my corns and ball pythons. Always always always, except when they are new hatchlings and I put them on paper towels. Not once have I had a dehydrated snake or an upper respiratory infection from dust. I have had the occasional mini heart attack when I can't find a baby snow corn because it's buried under the aspen and I think it has gotten out because as I'm searching it continues moving around the tank. That honestly is the only thing I don't like about it. Small light colored snakes can hide incredibly well in it.

I've never heard of bioactive substrate, or if I had the name didn't stick in my head. I agree with one of the above comments about putting your UTH on the side or something. When we build our hatchling rack, I'm going to place the flexwatt heat tape up the back of the rack so that the back of the tubs can be warm but the babies can't lay directly on it. There's not real reasoning behind that other than I'm super paranoid about things.

 

[Nythain]

Bioactive substrate is just a term for a natural "living" ground, earth plants bugs worms water... basically its a substrate for display vivs that would require little to no cleaning or care because the natural critters and underwater layer take care of most everything for you.

 

[xoxocammyxoxo]

Bioactive substrate is just a term for a natural "living" ground, earth plants bugs worms water... basically its a substrate for display vivs that would require little to no cleaning or care because the natural critters and underwater layer take care of most everything for you.

Oooh that sounds interesting. Would that be good for something like frogs and toads?

 

[Nythain]

Would be good for just about anything that pooped and peed Though it is particularly popular with the frog and gecko crowd. There's an old thread here detailing a simple setup, and google or the book The Art of Keeping Snakes can give more detail setups and information.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53051

 

[HerpsOfNM]

an example...a 90 gallon Oceanic Lizard Lounge with a grumpy tokay gecko. Tank's been up and running for 2+ years. All I do is remove heavy fecal build-up and only once have I had to add soil (about 7 months in) due to soil compacting after initial settling.

I've thought about doing similar for my green tree pythons, just don't have the applicable caging to pull it off.