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Documenting Geneology and Snake info

skylark711

skylark711

New member
I am just getting started into breeding and owning corns and I would like to keep a good log of how old my snakes are and what their genetic lines entail. Does anyone have good suggestions for keeping them all recorded? And a list of what to record would be helpful as well. (even the obvious)

Thanks
Shannon
 
Good question

I'm going the same thing and would love to hear everyones answers!!

HEY Serpwidget...This would be a great puter app. for you to make!!


Colleen
 
here's what I'm planning to do...

I don't mind sharing my system - I'm brand new, and have not hatched a single reptile yet, so your mileage may varry :)

I actually have 2 systems.

One is my breeding management system, which I do on my computer with the "Genotype and Phenotype Calculator" in conjunction with eXcel. I map each of my snakes in a spreadsheet, then use than to input data in the GnP calc to decide who gets to date whom. In the spreadsheet, each male is a number, and each female a letter so I can easilly reference F1 traits to the parents in the blink of an eye (I also map the phenotypes of desirable matches sincee I plan to add them to the breeding ranks in time.)

The other system I keep on paper, in a file cabinet. I'll describe my "code" for IDing breeders last, because it may be too incoherent, while the other information might be more useful while you are still awake :) The data sheets in the folders contain (in a perfect world) one or more 8x10 pictures of the animal, plus a data sheet with some rudimentary information, and plenty of room for notes, such as shed intervals, changes in habit or eating, etc. So anyway, the info I currently track on the data sheet is as follows:

date
livestock ID coded (explained in a moment)
name
description
birth or acquisition date
age at acquisition
weight
length
appetite
condition
seller
contacts
additional notes

Now finally, as to the L.I.D. system, which I *think* will workout for me, but may in fact be incoherent gibberish to the sane goes like this, example:

GU C A0 AA0AA4 M

Where, GU is the species (gekko ulikovskii) C is the year (if 2000 = A and 2001 = B, then C = 2002) A0 is the first number assigned in this year - this is a unique identifer among all the "GU" livestock in my collection. A1 would be the next hatchling, then A2, and so on.) AA0AA4 represents the hatchlings mother and father's unique ID's. Finally, M is for male.

If I haven't lost you, you can see that a simple cross-reference in the file cabinet takes me right to the folders with information on the parents, which in turn, ,cross-references their parents (assuming I know who they were :)

I'm also interested in what others do to track lineage and whatnot. I also thinmnk I ought to acquire a couple or few WC corns to "aeirate" my breeding stock, if you know what I mean, since I have little idea how closely related some of them may be.

^Curtis
 
woah, brain overload...

Curt,

1. What is the geno calc?
2. Would it be easier to keep your information in Access and use database relationships to cross reference?
3. Can you go over the id's system again with maybe a lil extra explaination? (I am a lil slow.. I guess...)
4. Thank you thank you thank you... this is the info. is what I wanted to know.

Thus, far, I am gathering what data to collect and I plan on creating a database with relational tables between each set of data. The key to mapping all data to one another is a unique identifier, which I would like to use your number system or a slight variation to accomodate my needs.

On the front end of the database, I want to use forms to input data and a switchboard to macro actions. aka "open snake a's eating habbit, show stats in a graph, and print out the results"

Evenutually, I wouldn't mind creating a web-based front end and host the data on a website. Does this make me a snake nerd?

Thanks
Shannon
 
L.I.D Idea

Ok, tell me what you think of this adaption, Curits...

Species Specimen Mother Father
---------- ------------ --------- --------
Egg 02F0 99F1 98M6

Egg-02F0-99F1-98M6

Basically, I took out the A=2000, etc. The reason is the 26 year cycle and the above may be a bit more intuitive.

I hope the suggestion is ok. Personally, I am looking to do this only once. :)

Skylark
 
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definately a snake nerd

hehehe

actually, the online DB gives me an idea. Probably a pipe-dream, because management and participation would certainly be mondo headaches, BUT I just think it'd be really cool to form a sort of a breeders co-op....

Basically, if you are a member there are minimum accounting requirements to ensure proper stock tracking, but you could use the DB to "free agent" your snakes. It'd prolly only work on a season-by-season basis to allow for quarantine and such, but the main benefit, in my mind, is a semi-formal snake-trading program. I don't know about you, but since I'm doing this out of my (rather small) home, I am limited to far fewer projects than I'd really like - to be able to collaborate on projects would be just awesome.

^Curtis
 
oh, about the year...

I certainly understand only wanting to do this once... my thought at the time was that there's no way I'd be breeding 26-year-old herptiles, so I could just begin recycling the "unique" IDs in 27 years. On the other hand, computer memory is cheap these days, and saving a single digit is not worth complicating matters. I like the suggestion. Yes a relational DB would also be good (I've never poked at Access) because you could instantly see family trees, photo's, or other data or views as seems handy.

The GnP, by the way, is shareware... I got it from:

http://nemsoft.virtualave.net/

It's a tool for making the Mendelian square thingies.
 
Genetics Calc

Here's a genetics calc. Free .... I think it's pretty spiffy. http://www.geneticswizard.com/

I have windows 2000 and can't use GnP or at least it hasn't been tested for win2k.

thanks though

I like the idea of a snake co-op. It would be difficult to guarantee safety of pets and disease free snakes. If those issues could be sorted out, then this could be a very viable option. I am going to continue researching data to collect for a while longer. Once I feel like I have a sound amount of information, I will start on an access database and front end. I will keep you posted on how it goes. (Prolly a good long project with my current schedule)
 
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co-op

If it (a breeders co-op) could happen at all, it'd have to start very small, between breeders that have built a trust in each other maintaining clean facilities and a high level of care, of course. If there was enough interest, we could actually form two or more sub-groups so there is a high degree of peer review of each others facilities - then once any given sub-group has ironed out the kinks, weave it into the larger co-op framework. Probably only use it for breeding projects, not for distrtribution, unless there was a demand for that too... it seems that handling distribution personally works well.

^Curtis
 
Breeders Co-Op

hmm, I like the idea... I think it's the hippy in me. hehe So, out of curiousity, what type of corns do you have? Currently, I have two snow corns. The female is gravid but I am not counting my eggs until they are hatched... which more than 2 months from now. Maybe we could work out a swap if you are breeding corns that I am interested in, eh?

I have ordered two baby lavenders for this fall and debating on a 96 female sunglow het for motley. She may be too old too breed and she's a fair chunk of change. I am interested in tinkering with genetics and color combos so I don't know if that's a good route to go.

Course, when I am her age in snake years.. I would like a good home to retire in.
 
Skylark,


Here's my stock (an * means I have not yet recieved the snake, but the deal seems closed.) Begining with my breeding age stock:

1.0 snow (peachy-apricot between the white)
1.0 het butter, het motley
0.1 * female miami - het snow, het butter
0.1 * WC keys, miami phase
0.1 * female okeetee (love line) het hypo (assuming B)
0.1 * female pastel motley X albino oketee
0.1 * female motley


stock I might be able to breed next year:

1.1 * ghost
0.1 * blizard
0.1 butter motley
0.1 * snow


babies:

1.1 * het hypo-A, het hypo-B
1.1 * het hypo-A, het hypo-B, het Anery-A


I'm considering pairs of the following lines also... (I'm not buying all the most expensive designer phases, not intentionally, anyway.. I'm focusing on snakes that I find attractive, as well as those I think may be fun to "experiment" with...)

crimson
bloodred (pewter too)
sunglow


I think that's pretty thorough, but as you can see, I'm right in the middle of expanding my collection quite substantially so I may have overlooked something - plus I'm still looking for good deals on breeding age stock.

^Curtis
 
hehe um.. out of my league?

ok, so I must look like an uba newbie.... and I am. However, I will keep you posted on what I get.

I am looking for quality adults with good documentation of genetics and babies.

Please feel free to email me to chat or whatever [email protected]. I would love to see pics of your snakes.

No spam please, though.

skylark
 
who's the uba newbie?

well, I've never hatched a single herp, so I might be more newbie than you, but I'm hoping for a career change where I can work frorm home... anyway...

Most of my stock is serpenco originals or second or 3rd generation from the top breeders, including some blood from Don S. and the Loves as well. I'll probably add one WC to the collection each year so I can keep healthy blood rotating through my snakes - I plan to do some inbreeding and I want to out-cross. Actually, I'm going to be using my miami for outcrossing this year and next, but I'm curious if outcrossing with sunglows, bloodred, zig-zags, or aztecs might be fun down the road a ways :)

So as it is, I don't have flawless documentation on my snakes (I'm not demanding serpenco receipts for resold snakes, for example) but everything I breed is going into my phenotype database as well as the other info we mentioned tracking. Hopefully I'll even discover some "hidden" het's in my stock with the proper pairings; I'd think it's a safe bet with all the inbreeding that goes on these days, rofl.

^Curtis
 
another db idea

Well, I wish you luck with the career change. I would love to work less myself.

Here's a grand scheme that it bound to have lots of bugs but...

What about creating a world wide database for snakes based on our method above, creating online access to the db and allowing people to track their snakes no matter who they are sold to?

It may allow for better tracking of snakes genetics without your wife and/or husband moving out. hehe

What cha think?

Sky~
 
I think Rich and the rest of the breeders would attest to the fact that breeding corns is definitely NOT less work. I'm buying a new house and the detached 2 car garage is going to be my breeding facility. All I'm looking to do is pay for my hobby, my house note, and my new acquisitions. I'm targeting for a 3 year goal for that, hopefully sooner, but if I can accomplish it in 3 years I'll be happy.

Peter
 
snake db

I never said that this method would be less work. In fact, I recognize that it's more work. However, I still hold that this would allow for a more stratified system for tracking changes in the snakes. I am thinking more from a genetic trait stand point not a breeding to make money (even to support a habbit) stand point.

skylark
 
less work?

I'm not sure if that was directed at me or Sky - if it was at me, I assume it has something to do with me thinking I can supporrt myself by breeding herps....

(on the other point, Sky is correct that of course it's more work, but it also provides an amazing wealth of information to breeders, so IMHO it'd be worth it.)

I certainly don't think being my own boss will be "less work" than any of the other jobs I've ever held. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty certain to spend more time and energy doing this that I ever put into any of my last few jobs. The primary reason I'm trying to "recreate" my life is because I have disabilities which seriously affect my ability to "do the 9 to 5 routine". I was lucky enough to put away a good stash of money in my last techjob and although I expect I'll need to get a part-time job soon to keep paying the rent it is my hope that I can detach from that eventually and support myself soley by breeding animals. I suppose I could try to "milk the system" and try for permanent disability status and mooch off hard-working taxpayers... even if I "deserve" it it just seems like way too much bad karma to work off - I'd rather take care of myself.

Less work? doubt it... more rewarding? absolutely. If you have other ideas for me I'm all ears. If you were'nt trolling me - I appologize. (I think someone forgot their meds this morning.)

^Curtis
 
appreciate your hardwork

Of course breeding snakes are more work than other jobs. The important thing is what you truly love and can provide enough support to make ends meat.

I started out as an aspiring Anthropologist and played with computers as a hobby. Then something happened, I realized I could make money with computers and enjoy it as well.

It's the same for snakes. Currently, I plan to make enough money to support the expensive habbit. I am already thinking of racking systems, lots of particular snakes, and relaxation. I love the fact that snakes--even though more work-- are gratifying to work with.

Curtis, I commend you for your efforts. Thanks for not wasting my tax dollars and I am glad to see your working with something you love.

Back to the thread at hand....

I found a program that provides a database for tracking snakes. It's ok.... I may use some of the ideas as a basis for creating my own. I would like other functionality and the ability to modify the database itself. As far as I know, it's not open source. poo. I should throw the guy and email and ask him if I can get access to the backend or better yet, permission to modify it. There's no sense in recreating the wheel... I just want to perfect it for my needs. Here's the link: http://www.compasscomputers.net/boa-cam/db.html It's free but you have to give him a lot of info. about yourself to get it. Name/Addy/Phone/Email etc. It's a shopping cart setup.

Toodles
Sky~
 
My tracking system...

For tracking lineage in my collection, I use a simple system.

One qualifier: ALL of my snakes will always have names. If I cannot name them, or remember their names, I have too many snakes. (I do not name hatchlings unless they are keepers...)

Based on that, each snake has a two-letter abbreviation. Pinky is Pi, Brutus is Bu, etc.

Every hatchling I produce is given an ID based on:
Mother, Father, Year Hatched, #

The ones hatched from Brainy X Vic are BaVc02-01 through BaVc02-08. Pinky and Seven's babies are PiSv02-01, etc.

Since I know all of their names (and geno/phenotypes and personalities) it's a simple matter of converting the ID# into all the information I need. With just that number, I can tell you what genes that they are carrying, expressing, or possibly carrying or expressing.

If there happens to be a second clutch that actually produces a hatchling, the ID# will have "b" attached to the end of the year:

PiSv02b-01

Dunno how useful it might be for others, especially if they are large-scale, but it works great for me. :)
 
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