First month issues...

[meedo_74]

OK, good news first:

Fuzzy is a feeder so no need to force feed :spinner: first meal (2 weeks after getting hime from the shop, as per the seller advice) he got 4 pinkies

First handling (4 days after the meal, he still had bumps though), was a horrible experience, he acted like I am trying to eat him, which is natural I believe, bitten me few times :angry01: before surrendering and after a while he calmed down Second time handling, next day, was much better, he was still afraid but he didn't bite or even tried to bite, which is a good sign I believe

Bad news comes here, third time handling yesterday evening, this is one week after the meal, he vomited two minutes after handling :uhoh: I am not sure if I pressed on the wrong part of his body or what
And for me it is strange that after one week he still have bumps and he could vomit traces of the pinkies, so they were not fully digested :nope:

His second meal should have been today but I am thinking of cutting him some slack until all bumps are gone, or

 

[Lennycorn]

Health Issues/Feeding Problems FAQ

Please read this....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Health Issues/Feeding Problems FAQ

FEEDING PROBLEMS

Q: My snake regurgitated! What do I do?
A: This is without a question the biggest problem that most people will face while owning their snake. I will give my opinion on this, but at the bottom of the page are FAQ's on this subject by Kathy Love---PLEASE read that also. First off you should try to figure out why the snake regurged it's meal. Was the food item too big? Not totally thawed? Improper temps? Check all of those things so you do not make that same mistake again. Wait between 8-10 days and feed an item smaller than what your snake is currently eating. For example, if your snake is on fuzzies and regurgiated, drop down and feed pinkies. You can also place a few small cuts in the skin to aid in digestion after a regurge, or all the time. If it keeps that down, great. I'd suggest for the next two feedings to keep with a smaller prey item before going back to the regular sized items. If the snake regurgitates it's next smaller meal right after the first regurgitation, then please skip down to the bottom and read Kathy's FAQ.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18251

 

[meedo_74]

I have done some of the things Kathy advised already, like removing some of the decoration because he was always hiding in a cone like natural wood flower piece all the time which is away from the sun spot light and elevated from the ground where the heat mattress is, my tank temperature is at 27 C now, is this OK or?

 

[Lennycorn]

The snake regurged...I can't see why removing hides would help.
I didn't see where Kathy states to do that either.
I'm guess 27 C is about 57F...If so, the temp should be (on the warm side) mid 80's F. And if you use a UTH (Under Tank Heater) that would be better than lights How are your temps too. With what???
but more importantly ...read below.


Kathy Love FAQ's

FAQ from Kathy Love on Regurgitation Treatment

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - once a snake has regurged, especially twice or more, it is more likely to keep on regurging until it dies, unless something is changed about its care and feeding. It is very important NOT to let this continue. PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW VERY CAREFULLY. This is from my FAQ on regurges:

I suspect your problem is probably not bad mice, but about handling too soon, feeding too soon or too large of a meal, a stomach "bug", or improper temps. If you make these mistakes once, or even twice, it is not usually a problem if you FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. But remember, each time it regurges, the stomach acids are depleted, and the whole electrolyte balance is thrown off more and more each time, and it makes it MORE likely that it will continue to throw up until it dies. (those consequences are just my opinions - I do not know if science backs up my conclusions, but my experience certainly does!) That is why it is so important to NOT ALLOW another regurge.

The next month or two is crucial. DO NOT feed it for AT LEAST 8 days since the last regurge. NOT ANYTHING AT ALL! Then get a newborn frozen pinky and cut it in half (or cut off just the head) If she eats it, leave her alone for a whole week. (no handling). Repeat the partial pinkie feeding the following week. Then feed a whole newborn pinkie a week after that, if there has been no regurge. Leave alone for a whole week. If she regurges, wait a week and repeat 1/2 pinkie. If she keeps it down, wait a week and repeat whole pinkie. If she holds down a couple of meals, DO NOT rush back into larger meals and more handling. Treat this seriously. Go very slowly. After 3 successful meals, go to a newborn pink every 5 days. Go back to normal feedings only after 6 successful meals. Always wait to handle until after 3 or 4 days, but only AFTER 6 successful meals. No handling until then (causes stress, need to keep stress down). And NEVER feed again right after a regurge - ALWAYS wait AT LEAST 7 or 8 days, maybe even up to 10 days, and then only feed something that was about 1/2 the size (or less) of what she regurged..

Also, be sure that temps are not too warm or cool. Try to give an area of low to mid 80s on one side and 70s on the other. Too hot or cold will cause regurges.

Grapefruit seed extract can sometimes help if the snake has some sort of "stomach bug" (any microbial problem) as it is a natural remedy that is good against many kinds of pathogens, but not as strong as an antibiotic prescribed by a doctor. This product has been used in agriculture for many years and seems to be very safe, as long as you dilute it with enough water that the acidity does not burn the tissues. A vet has told me he feels that it may somewhat alter the pH of the animal and thus change the way medicines are absorbed. So if you use this product and then take the snake to a vet, mention the treatment so it can be taken into account if the vet decides to change the prescription because of it. It is best to mix it in a glass and taste it to make sure it is not so bitter that the snake refuses to drink it. I have used it on myself and so has my husband. I find it works better on stomach problems than for other symptoms (such as respiratory - I didn't have any luck treating colds or other respiratory problems).You can buy it at a local health food store or online. Please refer to the following website for more background info:
http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html

I have also had success with a probiotic called Nutri Bac, a fine powder containing seven different microflora that should be inhabiting the gut of reptiles, but may be absent due to stress, disease, antibiotic treatments, etc. Using the powder as a supplement will sometimes allow the reptile to get back the natural balance of microbes in its digestive tract, and then its own immune system can take over. See my website for more details, or go here:
http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn Ut...information.htm

The number of days and amounts of food, etc, suggested above are not set in stone. Other people may have success with slightly different formulas, but this is what I found works for me and many of my customers. If this protocol does not work when carefully followed, it is likely that the snake has some severe problems. Your only hope is a QUALIFIED herp vet, who may or may not be able to save your pet.

Please follow my care sheet for the first month or so when starting with new acquisitions (posted on my website for the first month's care of new corns).. The first month is crucial in getting the baby established. It is worth a little extra "coddling" for the first month in order to have a trouble free pet for the next 10 or 15 years or more.

Good luck!
Kathy Love

CONTACT INFO:

CORNUTOPIA / Kathy Love
Captive-Bred Cornsnakes

WEB: http://www.CornUtopia.com
TEL: (239) 728 2390
Backup tel. # 239-691-4414 (Cell)
EMAIL: [email protected]

 

[Susan]

First, how large is Fuzzy? Any snake that gets 4 pinkies as it's regular meal should be on larger prey items such as a fuzzy (no pun intended). I'm thinking that his meal may have been too large for him which can extend the digestion time and make a snake more prone to regurge that meal.

If my conversion table is correct, 27 C is 80.6 F, which is mid-range temp. The cool end of the viv should be around 25 C and the warm end around 30 C so Fluffy can decide what temp he wants to be at. He should have hides at both ends that allow him to get the heat from the bottom. Cooler viv temps will slow digestion, increasing the chance the meal will spoil and cause a regurge.

Also, and I'm not laying blame, if you still feel lumps after a feeding, you shouldn't handle the snake. Your description of the first handling session sounded as if Fluffy got extremely stressed and that could be another factor in the regurge.

Follow the regurge protocol Lenny provided for you and Fluffy should be back on track soon enough.

 

[requin]

27C is around 80F, so you could go up to about 29C (~85F) and be in a good range. Are you using an UTH? And what are you using to measure the temperature?

It sounds to me like the regurge was caused by handling the snake when he wasn't done digesting (so, the lumps you saw). I'm not sure why it would take so long to digest, assuming the meal you gave him was the right size - how big is your snake? I'm asking because 4 pinkies is kind of an odd amount to feed - usually once your snake graduates from one pinky, you feed two pinkies for a while and then move up to fuzzies, etc. So, all that said, if it wasn't too much food for him then it's probably a heating issue, but it sounds like you're getting that taken care of. In the future, don't handle him until the lumps in his belly are completely gone. As a general rule I wait until my snake poops before I handle him again after a meal.

Definitely don't try to feed him again yet, and when you do, make sure to follow the regurge protocol.

 

[bitsy]

My guesses:

- 4 pinkies are too much. At the next feed (to be done as per Kathy's instructions above) just offer one and if that stays down, gradually work your way up to 3 over the next couple of months.

- You should never handle if food items are obviously undigested (handling when there are still lumps), especially if this is obviously stressful (hence the biting and acting out). Normal advice would be to persist in handling, but with undigested food in his stomach, this really does risk a regurge.

- 27C is 80.6F. The warm side ideally needs to be a few degrees warmer (30C or 85F), but I don't think this would cause a major problem with digestion. Are you absolutely sure that you're measuring the temp at floor level, immediately above the heat mat, with an accurate (i.e. not a strip or dial-type) thermometer? Excess temperatures can also cause regurges.

- I'd strongly advise against removing hides or ground cover and not giving him alternatives. These give the snake places to keep under cover. If he loses them, he'll get even more stressed and will be less likely to recover. Please replace them with other things if you're not happy with the actual hides. Toilet roll tubes cut in half lengthwise will be just fine - they don't have to be fancy.


Lack of digestion afer a week certainly is a concern. As well as the factors above, there may potentially be something wrong with your snake. However, you need to eliminate all of the factors above before you can tell.

Once you've checked/made alterations to his environment, following Kathy's guidance above is vital.

 

[meedo_74]

The snake regurged...I can't see why removing hides would help.
I didn't see where Kathy states to do that either.
I'm guess 27 C is about 57F...If so, the temp should be (on the warm side) mid 80's F. And if you use a UTH (Under Tank Heater) that would be better than lights How are your temps too. With what???
but more importantly ...read below.

Kathy was talking about 'favorite' hides vs optimal hides, in one of the answers to the thread you sent me the link to, the snake can have a favorite hide in the cold section and never go to the warm section of the viv, so she suggested to have the roll thing for the snake to be able to move back and forth in the viv between warm and cold.

I do have UTH (works around the clock) plus the sun spot light, and the normal full spectrum light in the morning, then at night only moon light (UTH still on)

My thermometer is digital one (Exo tera), the measuring point is at the middle of the back side of the viv, so the 27C is the average temperature neither the warm side nor the cold side temp.

 

[meedo_74]

My guesses:

- 4 pinkies are too much. At the next feed (to be done as per Kathy's instructions above) just offer one and if that stays down, gradually work your way up to 3 over the next couple of months.

- You should never handle if food items are obviously undigested (handling when there are still lumps), especially if this is obviously stressful (hence the biting and acting out). Normal advice would be to persist in handling, but with undigested food in his stomach, this really does risk a regurge.

I guess you are right Bitsy, the shop told me to feed him only 3 pinkies (Fuzzy is 35 cm long), after 2 weeks of the transport trip from shop to home, he said the trip is usually stressful for the snake and it is like drinking much beer and then going in the roller coaster! I waited the two weeks, there were no bumps in Fuzzy while he was in the shop and this was 5 days after his last meal, I thought he would be very hungry now and offered him 4 pinkies, to my surprise he got them all :eek1:

I guess this was too much for him, because the bumps didn't disappear after 7 days now :uhoh: Any way he didn't full regurge, so he did regurge like half of the bumps size, and he didn't do this in the viv or during the first two times of handling, only one minute after the third time I handle him. I have read that I shouldn't handle him 2 to 3 days after feeding, but no one told me 'while making sure no bumps are visible', people should be more precise :shrugs:

 

[bitsy]

I have read that I shouldn't handle him 2 to 3 days after feeding, but no one told me 'while making sure no bumps are visible'

Ah well, normally digestion will be well underway by the 2-3 day limit, but this rule of thumb doesn't take account of accidental overfeeding. There can't really be a rule for every combination of factors - and if there was, the Corns would find ways to break them pretty fast!

Hopefully, following the advice above will have your guy back on track soon.

so the 27C is the average temperature neither the warm side nor the cold side temp.

You need to be measuring the maximum temperature at the warm side, as this is what could cause harm to your snake. 27C as an average could mean that the warm side is getting well over the safe maximum temperature. This could not only explain digestion issues but also the antsy attitude. Try moving the thermometer probe to the floor of the tank, immediately above the UTH and seeing what this says.