Force feeding Motley

[Motley07]

I may be asking the obvious here, but from what I know, some baby cornsnakes take to eating F/T pinkies immediately, while others take to eating eventually, and still others refuse food forever.

The following reasons are given from the websites I have gone on, including:

1 Heredity: If reluctant feeders grow up to be breeders, then they pass along the anorexia to some of their hatchlings

2. wild Cornsnakes natural diet is mostly anoles, so some hatchlings might be genetically programmed to eat only lizards.

3. fear of their prey/not knowing it is food

4. Won't eat commercially raised pinkys because of their smell. (Yes I did see this on a cornsnake site!)

5. Did I miss anything??

Other than that, it still amazes me that an animal (who works on instinct to survive) CHOOSES to refuse food to the point of death.


My little Motley is pretty thin but still musters enough strength to fight me during his force feeding episodes. He writhes around, clamps his mouth shut, twists his body into coils over his head/mouth, and poops. I know that he is deathly afraid of being force fed. I wish I didn't have to. I hate it. I keep expecting to accidently break his jaw, squeeze him fatally, etc. I wish he'd start eating on his own. This force-feeding is stressful on us both!

 

[Joejr14]

Imo, when it gets down to the need to force feed, it's a lost cause. Maybe I say this because I don't have the time to do it with 100+ hatchlings, but I just feel that if a snake won't eat a live pinky, f/t, washed, scented, etc---it needs to go ahead and be culled.

:shrugs:

 

[Motley07]

Imo, when it gets down to the need to force feed, it's a lost cause.

Maybe so. Others have said they SHOULD be culled or allowed to starve because if you breed a force-fed snake it weakens the gene pool and causes future generations of anorexic hatchlings.

However, I come on these sites to look for info and advice. I see the success stories of patient snake owners with one snake to force feed. As much as it may be a lost cause and a pain for me, I have to try. This is a gorgeous hurricane motley with a GREAT disposition. A reptile rescue guy said this little guy is worth at least $100 as a hatchling (I paid $30). It isn't just about his monetary worth, I just want to see if I can do it. He is going to starve to death if I don't do anything for certain, but he MIGHT survive my amauture hand-feedings and grow up to be a gorgeous, well-adjusted corn. I've got the will and the time, the rest is up to Motley.

 

[grimm1]

another possible reason for non eaters is most "morphs" were never meant to survive in the first place. these are technically defects at the genetic level.

 

[Cam5]

1) How old is your little guy?
2) How long have you had him?
3) Are his temps okay, hide spots, substrate, water bowl etc?
4) Have you had a fecal checked?
5) Has he ever eaten of his own free will?
6) Did you ask whomever you purchased him from if he was eating? (If he was prior and you have only had him a few weeks he may just need some time to adjust)
7) How are you force feeding him? With a pinky pump? Other method?
8) How often are you feeding and what amount?

Otherwise the only thing I would add to your list is, when male snakes reach "maturity" around 3 years old, they can go on hunger strikes during breeding season...whether or not there is a female around.

This site has a lot of posts (as you've seen about non eaters and force feeders).
Some people suggest washing the f/t mouse with ivory soap, or dipping in chicken broth or tuna water, scenting with a lizard, putting the snake in a separate enclosure with "dinner" and left alone overnight covered for more privacy.

 

[Cat_Eyed_Lady]

well, I dont beleive in culling unless absolutely necessary... so.... As you may or may not have read in Jaxom's thread about feeding the unwilling... Jaxom is currently force feeding 6 hatchlings and I, myself, am also doing 6 hatchlings. Jaxom wrote a great way for force feeding and I am doing as he said... so far so good I wish you all the best of luck with your baby

 

[Motley07]

1) How old is your little guy?

I am not sure. I purchased him from Petco on July 14th. I work there and he had come in at the beginning of July.

2) How long have you had him?

About a month

3) Are his temps okay, hide spots, substrate, water bowl etc?

He has a heat mat at one end, the room temp is about 75, he has two hides, aspen substrate, and a decorative rock water bowl (which I have seen him drink from).


4) Have you had a fecal checked? No
5) Has he ever eaten of his own free will?

Yes, once. On July 4th or 5th, I fed him a fairly large F/T pinky in Petco's back room in his own little critter keeper. He scarfed it right down.


6) Did you ask whomever you purchased him from if he was eating? (If he was prior and you have only had him a few weeks he may just need some time to adjust)

7) How are you force feeding him? With a pinky pump? Other method?

Mostly putting heads & pieces of pinkys into him and making him swallow them.

8) How often are you feeding and what amount?

At first, I was giving him little teeny tiny pieces every day for 2-3 days straight. After several days break, I started feeding him bigger pieces/heads once every 3-4 days.

I tried feeding in the early a.m, early eve.
I tried braining, live, pureed.
I tried leaving him overnight covered up.
I tried feeding in his viv, in a little critter keeper

The things I haven't tried include; washing the pinky, dipping the pinky in tuna/chicken broth, and scenting with a lizard.

 

[JustineNYC]

1) How old is your little guy?

I am not sure. I purchased him from Petco on July 14th. I work there and he had come in at the beginning of July.

2) How long have you had him?

About a month

3) Are his temps okay, hide spots, substrate, water bowl etc?

He has a heat mat at one end, the room temp is about 75, he has two hides, aspen substrate, and a decorative rock water bowl (which I have seen him drink from).


4) Have you had a fecal checked? No
5) Has he ever eaten of his own free will?

Yes, once. On July 4th or 5th, I fed him a fairly large F/T pinky in Petco's back room in his own little critter keeper. He scarfed it right down.


6) Did you ask whomever you purchased him from if he was eating? (If he was prior and you have only had him a few weeks he may just need some time to adjust)

7) How are you force feeding him? With a pinky pump? Other method?

Mostly putting heads & pieces of pinkys into him and making him swallow them.

8) How often are you feeding and what amount?

At first, I was giving him little teeny tiny pieces every day for 2-3 days straight. After several days break, I started feeding him bigger pieces/heads once every 3-4 days.

I tried feeding in the early a.m, early eve.
I tried braining, live, pureed.
I tried leaving him overnight covered up.
I tried feeding in his viv, in a little critter keeper

The things I haven't tried include; washing the pinky, dipping the pinky in tuna/chicken broth, and scenting with a lizard.

Whoa..I dont know much about force feeding but I was told it was 'last resort'. Youve only had your corn a month, Ive had snakes stop eating for longer then that, why are you force feeding after a month?


They can go alot longer then that without food. You may actually be turning him off to the eating process.



Maybe someone more knowledgeable can help but after a month I dont see that force feeding is necessary.

 

[diamondlil]

Could you get a digital thermometer with probe and check your temperatures more accurately? Is the heatmat on a thermostat?
The reason I ask this is because I re-habbed a non-feeder for someone, it had never ate for them and was skin and bones so I syringe fed it a couple of times before trying a normal f/t feed. It ate for me with no hesitation. I gave it back to the owner and it stopped eating again. I questioned more closely about the set-up and was told that the temperatures were not controlled properly. The owner then sorted out the husbandry and the snake started eating voluntarily again.
Here's Skooge when I got her, and before she left for home

 

[Motley07]

It was 3.5 weeks and yes I have heard that they (hatchlings) can go 6-7 weeks without food. The reptile rescue place near me (The guy that owns it) looked at Motley around 4 weeks and said he was REALLY skinny and would only give him a 40% chance of survival. I can feel his backbone bumps and see them.

I don't want to wait until he is literally at death's door and too weak to have force feeding be of much good. If he isn't eating on his own at 3.5 weeks after purchase, what would make him eat 5 weeks after purchase?? (other than sheer starvation?) I wanted to be a bit more proactive.

If I am turning him off of feeding, he was ALREADY turned off, so I don't think I made it much worse. Now what? He had two pinky heads a couple of days ago. Should I wait a week???, two??? Trust me, this particular snake is sort of a runt. There was no way I was going to let him not eat for 6 weeks.

 

[Nanci]

Why haven't you tried the simpler things like tuna water scenting and chicken broth scenting? Or any kind of lizard or lizard shed scenting. I would try any of those, at four-five day intervals. I'd put the snake with the scented prey in a very small covered container in the evening after sunset, in the dark, and leave him alone four several hours, or overnight, without peeking more than a couple times, and not at all for the first three hours or so. I would do two series of attempts, then if he refused the second attempt, feed him yourself, then on the next scheduled day, let him try a different scent on his own again, for two times.

Are you weighing him to make sure he is gaining weight? Once he has gained some size, you can try letting him go a little longer to see if you can get him hungry enough to eat something. Like a week or so.

Also, make sure you have the pink _really_ hot. Like 101F-103F.

I have a snake that gets force fed. She behaves in the exact manner you describe. I wouldn't say she is deathly afraid, but that she doesn't enjoy the process and is trying to avoid it. Somehow she can tell if I am taking her out to be handled, or to be fed, and she will start writhing and musking and hissing and pooing the instant I take her out on a feeding day, but not otherwise...

Nanci

 

[Cam5]

I realize your hatchling is thin for size but ours only ate every 4 weeks for the first couple months and then went to the more traditional 7-10 days once he was adjusted. However, you know him best and I respect your concern...I defer to the prior posts....they know this stuff far better than I.


Just to think about:
We added an overhead heat lamp on one end of our corn's tank a couple years ago. This allows him to regulate his needs by climing up on a basking branch and sitting under the light as he feels he needs.
Just make sure the lamp/bulb is on the outside of the enclosure and that the bulb does not touch the screen lid. Ours is a lamp fixture with a dimmer switch so we can tweek the heat depending on weather....we got it at petco or petsmart. They are great because it eliminates the need to swap out the bulbs.

********************************************************
Is he spending most of his time on the warm or cool side?
Under the substrate?
Has he had any trouble with his sheds?
Is he in a room that is busy? he may need a quiet spot while he adjusts.
Is there a window or do you have a light on in the room during the daylight hours so he "cycles"?

********************************************************
We had bad luck with the heat mats on their own...if your little guy burrows down he can get overheated (even seriously injured) before he knows it from the heat mat (same goes for those heat rocks). While I realize a lot of people say they need a ventral heat source to digest properly, I would not use a heat mat without a rheostat. When we got our temp gun it read that at two spots in the heat mat were 130* and 140* far too hot for a corn. :flames:

We also really like those reptile hammocks. We have a few at different levels and our corn climbs and rests in all sorts of different positions on them They are also very easy to clean.

I may have misunderstood your reply, but you said his viv is a "little critter keeper". What size keeper is it?

It is really difficult if not impossible to have a heat gradient in anything smaller than a 10 gallon tank....and I found a 20 gallon or 20 gallon long for the hatchling a far easier habitat to maintain. We also have ours on paper towels (a lot easier to clean and I don't worry about him ingesting the substrate) but I know the rest of the world uses shavings etc.

Make sure your ambient air temp in the warm end is 85* (mid 80's) down to 75*(mid 70's) in the cool side.

He is lucky you care enough to help him along ...unforunately he shows his appreciation by pooing on you :shrugs:

 

[JustineNYC]

It was 3.5 weeks and yes I have heard that they (hatchlings) can go 6-7 weeks without food. The reptile rescue place near me (The guy that owns it) looked at Motley around 4 weeks and said he was REALLY skinny and would only give him a 40% chance of survival. I can feel his backbone bumps and see them.

I don't want to wait until he is literally at death's door and too weak to have force feeding be of much good. If he isn't eating on his own at 3.5 weeks after purchase, what would make him eat 5 weeks after purchase?? (other than sheer starvation?) I wanted to be a bit more proactive.

If I am turning him off of feeding, he was ALREADY turned off, so I don't think I made it much worse. Now what? He had two pinky heads a couple of days ago. Should I wait a week???, two??? Trust me, this particular snake is sort of a runt. There was no way I was going to let him not eat for 6 weeks.

I wouldnt say he was already turned off after 3-4 weeks, no. He shouldve had a week alone to settle once you took him home before he was offered food.

You say he is deathly afraid of being force fed, but you havent tried simple things like washing and scenting. Im assuming you havent tried chicken broth either.


I have a girl thatll starve herself before she takes a pinky that isnt heated in broth, and she only takes it hot (101-103)

How many times did you leave him over night in a deli cup with a live pinky? Did you wait a week before you offered food again?

He ate 4 weeks ago, I would be going back and checking my husbandry at the 4 week mark because he ate in the store.

After youve force fed him maybe you can wait two weeks and try live again.....or broth scented.......but I would think youd have to give him time to eat on his own after force feedings.

 

[Nanci]

I was just reminded on the hoggy list that sometimes it works to put the snake and whatever prey item in a brown paper bag, fold the top, put that in the viv and do not touch it for 12 hours.

Nanci

 

[Motley07]

*UPDATE* (and pics)

Well, I fed Motley again last Monday. I force fed him 2/3 of a good sized pink and he hasn't regurged it. He is holding his own and still remains my sweet little guy towards me. I took a pic of him today. He is now approx 10-12 wks old:

IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/catslaveof3/Motley2.jpg[/IMG]

Peaches is doing O.K Her viv shows 80-82 degrees with ONE heat mat on and the thermometers are on the cool side (top of tank) and the bottom front left near the substrate and heated side. BOTH are reading exactly the same temps. She ate her first meal yesterday. I probably shouldn't have but I did feed her live. I work at a pet store and brought home an unsellable small mouse. I put her in her feed box, put the mouse in and she nailed it almost immediately. I intend to use frozen from now on.

I can't help but feel to a degree that it IS more natural (they may be 'captive bred' as some have pointed out, but they still have the instinct to go more readily for LIVE prey, right??) for them to eat live. Why else would it be so hard to get some snakes (especially Ball Python babies) to take anything else? Our baby ball pythons at work refuse anything but live. We cave in and give them live because we don't want them to starve. We supervise and take out the mice if the snake won't eat within 20 minutes or so.

Please don't bash me. I know that feeding live prey is VERY controversial and most snake owners dissaprove. I want to feed F/T but so far Motley won't eat on his own, and I wasn't sure about Peaches so I fed her what I had.

Here are a couple of pics of Peaches:

 

[JustineNYC]

Well, I fed Motley again last Monday. I force fed him 2/3 of a good sized pink and he hasn't regurged it. He is holding his own and still remains my sweet little guy towards me. I took a pic of him today. He is now approx 10-12 wks old:

IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/catslaveof3/Motley2.jpg[/IMG]

Peaches is doing O.K Her viv shows 80-82 degrees with ONE heat mat on and the thermometers are on the cool side (top of tank) and the bottom front left near the substrate and heated side. BOTH are reading exactly the same temps. She ate her first meal yesterday. I probably shouldn't have but I did feed her live. I work at a pet store and brought home an unsellable small mouse. I put her in her feed box, put the mouse in and she nailed it almost immediately. I intend to use frozen from now on.

I can't help but feel to a degree that it IS more natural (they may be 'captive bred' as some have pointed out, but they still have the instinct to go more readily for LIVE prey, right??) for them to eat live. Why else would it be so hard to get some snakes (especially Ball Python babies) to take anything else? Our baby ball pythons at work refuse anything but live. We cave in and give them live because we don't want them to starve. We supervise and take out the mice if the snake won't eat within 20 minutes or so.

Please don't bash me. I know that feeding live prey is VERY controversial and most snake owners dissaprove. I want to feed F/T but so far Motley won't eat on his own, and I wasn't sure about Peaches so I fed her what I had.

Here are a couple of pics of Peaches:

Their all gorgeous. ...peaches is just wow!

Curious, Have you tried waiting and then offering something heated in tuna water or chicken broth yet?

Dont feel like anyone is bashing, but eventually hell have to eat on his own.

I know the chicken broth and tuna water sound dumb when youve tried things like live already, but I have an Amel who decided one day she was no longer going to eat anything not cooked in chicken broth. Its bizarre but worth a shot.

You said the thermometer is on the cool sider, Is 80-82 degrees the cool side? I believe that should be the warm side, the cooler should be in the seventies, not eighties.

 

[Motley07]

Their all gorgeous. ...peaches is just wow!

Curious, Have you tried waiting and then offering something heated in tuna water or chicken broth yet?

That's next time.


You said the thermometer is on the cool sider, Is 80-82 degrees the cool side? I believe that should be the warm side, the cooler should be in the seventies, not eighties.

I have a thermomter on the cool side (upper right of tank on the back) which reads 80 degrees, and also a thermomter on the lower left front side near the heated substrate that also reads 80 degrees. I can't quite figure it out. Peaches hangs out by her water bowl most of the time so I guess the heated side is a bit too warm. I plan on getting a dimmer switch to use on the UTH which admittedly is a bit too large for the tank size. I don't understand though, why my 'cool' side reads the same as the warm side!!

 

[zorro]

I know this is late but I have not seen anyone talk about brained pinkies. I had a Opal motley that would not eat and I tried everything. It was suggested to me to try a brained pinky. Take a frozen/thawed pinky and with a clean blade cut open the brain and with a little queeze push out alittle brain matter and with the blade smear some on the pinky. Put it in a cup with the snake over night. It worked great for me.
This is kind of gross but was told to me by one of the biggest breeders of corns.
It works

 

[Motley07]

Yep, I've tried braining but perhaps did it incorrectly? I snipped a hole in the top of the pinky's head and squeezed out the 'juices' the pinkys were also cut in half lengthwise, exposing organs and the brain. He just isn't interested in eating on his own just yet, but I am having faith he will as he did eat ONCE on his own (at Petco) it is only a matter of time before he makes up his mind to do it again.

 

[Motley07]

Mistaken identity

Someone on the Cornsnakeforum.com/UK told me Peaches is an amelanistic corn (red albino) NOT a creamsicle like I thought. I don't typically like albino animals but her peachy tones are what drew me to her in the first place, so I think she's lovely even for an albino