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Ghost x Caramel clutch with no normals?

fyrefairy

fyrefairy

New member
When I bought Inanna (Ghost) and Enkidu (Caramel), I was told that he'd been breeding her for a couple of weeks. I was also told that Persephone and Loki were from one of their 04 clutches. As P. and L. are motley-stripe ghost and pastel motley respectively, that would make both parents het motley-stripe and Loki het Anery A and hypo.

Additionally, I was told that Inanna was het bloodred and amel, and Enkidu was het amelanism.

14/23 eggs hatched for me. (My first clutch, I was totally unprepared as I was sold the caramel as the female and the ghost as the male, and the caramel hadn't shed.) I hadn't had time to get an incubator when the first clutch was thrown, and some of the eggs got a little cooked the first time the temperature spiked up here. (I discovered the A/c at my new apartment was broken.)

I haven't cut open any of the duds (I did slit them, and one baby took that as a hint.) but so far I've gotten 3 snow, 3 ghost, and 8 anery A babies out of this clutch. I haven't seen a single amel, normal, or hypo baby. Most of the hatchlings have shed now, and a couple have eaten. Other than the snows, nothing has even a rosy tinge. Also, there isn't a single motley baby in the bunch, though one snow does have a partially clear belly.

I'm extremely confused. As I understand it, caramel is a form of anery. Is this correct? If both parents are het amel, and they must be to throw snows, why aren't there any amels in the clutch? Is it because neither parent produces the red pigment? That would explain the lack of normals and hypos, I suppose. Is it more likely that Inanna was bred to a different male before I obtained her? Is it also likely that one or both of them is not parent to P. and L.?

She's thrown a second clutch of 17, and it's got about six weeks left at the minimum until hatching. I'm on pins and needles waiting to see what comes out of it.

Should I open the remaining eggs to see what was in them, or is it unlikely that the colors are fully developed?

Thanks in advance for your help, guys!
 
fyrefairy said:
I'm extremely confused. As I understand it, caramel is a form of anery. Is this correct? If both parents are het amel, and they must be to throw snows, why aren't there any amels in the clutch? Is it because neither parent produces the red pigment? That would explain the lack of normals and hypos, I suppose. Is it more likely that Inanna was bred to a different male before I obtained her? Is it also likely that one or both of them is not parent to P. and L.?
Click to expand...
Genetics calculators are just predictions of what could happen. It's possible you have a clutch that just doesn't have any plain amels in it just due to luck of the draw (not because neither parent shows the amel gene). It's also possible that there are no motleys or stripes for the same reasons. For those two to be parents of your others the one would have to be Ghost het diffused (bloodred), amel, motley or stripe and Caramel het amel, hypo, anery, motley or stripe. It is possible that your two younger ones have a different father and/or mother. I also believe that anery masks caramel in that the caramel gene is present but won't show up. I think the only way to tell if an Anery Caramel is homo for caramel is to do breeding tests. I hope I got all of that right and someone can actually understand it.

~Katie
 
fyrefairy said:
When I bought Inanna (Ghost) and Enkidu (Caramel), I was told that he'd been breeding her for a couple of weeks. I was also told that Persephone and Loki were from one of their 04 clutches. As P. and L. are motley-stripe ghost and pastel motley respectively, that would make both parents het motley-stripe and Loki het Anery A and hypo.
Click to expand...
My guess is that the caramel is not a caramel but an anery. This would explain why you're getting all anerys, and also the female just looks like an anery to me. If they are the parents of P and L, then they're both het for motley, or one's het for motley and the other is het for stripe.

Given that the seller couldn't identify anything's gender or anything's morph (weren't the anery offspring sold as lavenders and more than one of them mis-sexed?) I'm not inclined to put very much faith in their descriptions, or what they said the parents were. We've seen all too many cases where "impossible" offspring resulted from a breeding that "didn't occur" while someone placed two "females" together to clean one's cage, for example. ;)

Genotypically speaking, there are several different things that could be meant by "motley-stripe ghost" and "pastel motley." Many anery motleys can be ghost-like, so they may or may not be, genetically speaking, hypo anery mots. Until you actually get ghosts out of them, I'd personally not count on them to be het hypo. Same goes for amel... until you get snows from them, don't count on it. ;)

Anyway, it seems that the results make perfect sense when you ignore what "information" you were given about them. :) Definitely let us know what comes out of the second clutch.

Should I open the remaining eggs to see what was in them, or is it unlikely that the colors are fully developed?
Click to expand...
IMO, dead-in-egg don't count for anything. Many of them look like blizzards, anerys, hypos, or ghosts when they're cut out of the egg. Until they hatch on their own and have their first shed, all bets are off. :)
 
Thanks Katie,

I followed that pretty well. I know that she's not het caramel, so I wouldn't have expected any caramel or caramel variations in this clutch. I know I got bad information from the breeder on some other points, so I'm mostly curious as to whether all these babies are related or not.

I understand that it's mostly luck of the draw/statistics with the calculators. I wasn't sure how the anery genes carry in snows/etc. (Snow is albino for red and black, so if the parents are albino for red, maybe babys can't make any red at all?) <-- was just a thought. I was surprised that there weren't any normals or hypos either. One of my girlfriends is itching to open the other eggs, so I'll let her do that tonight and see what we might have had.
 
Serp: Okay. That sounds good to me. I did get three snows out of this clutch, and I should really post pics of them. There are some very dark anerys, medium anerys, and what I assumed were ghosts, but might just be really light anerys. I'll just have to distract myself until the second clutch hatches and see what I get.
 
PtDnsr said:
I also believe that anery masks caramel in that the caramel gene is present but won't show up.
Click to expand...

Is it that Anery masks Caramel, or Caramel masks Anery? I can't really remember. The extent of my knowledge (which isn't very much) is that one masks the other, but I always thought that Caramel was the masking trait. LOL
 
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