Help Converting a Live Only Feeder!!!

[Asbit]

So on the weekend of the 28th of September I went to Red Deer, AB Reptile show and bought some new additions, this guy, Heracles being one of them.

He is an Adult male proven breeder for which I was told by one person at the table was a live only feeder and that they only feed all of their snakes live but it should be no problem to convert him as they have sold many live feeders and they have converted easily. Then the other person at the table came over and said to myself and that person that they were incorrect and the snake was a F/T feeder mainly and occasionally live and that there was no problem getting him to eat F/T at all.

In the end I decided to take him in spite of the conflicting feeding history as he was one of only two adult proven breeders available that worked into my plans, so that I could breed for this coming spring.

It has now been 2 mths since I have had him with no success getting him to eat F/T.

Here is what I have done:
28/09/10 Purchased in AB

29/09/10 Returned home and weighed in @ 554gms

04/09/10 Gave heavy dose of NutriBac orally. Offered 24gm+ Adult F/T mouse, damp, brained and slit down the back. REFUSED

11/09/10 Offered 24gm+ Adult F/T mouse, very hot, dried, fluffed, not brained or slit. Immediately took mouse, but only swallowed until head was fully in and then spat it out!

13/09/10 Switched water bowl to a large reptile dish as he kept dumping the other one and I would find him lying in standing water.

18/09/10 In shed.

26/09/10 Perfect shed. Offered a 20gm Sub-Adult mouse, very hot, dried, fluffed, not brained or slit. This time I had to do a major (15min) zombie dance mimicking a moving mouse with it before he would take it. Again he only swallowed until head was fully in and then spat it out!

12/10/10 Switched out his water dish as the reptile dish would become slimy on the bottom within a day, which concerned me about bacteria growth and or him refusing to drink.

13/10/10 Offered a 12gm Hopper, I have been offering smaller meals thinking maybe the spit out thing had something to do with the size of the meal. Again major long zombie dance and no interest, just a brief sniff.

27/10/10 Today I switched out the paper towel in his tub thinking that maybe he was used to being able to burrow and maybe having that option would make a difference. Weighed him in @ 516. DOWN 38gms. :awcrap:

I know it is not a problem with the mice being bad as they are from the same provider and batch and I have given many other from that provider and batch to all of my other snakes and not had anyone spit them back out.

It almost seemed like because I stopped moving the mouse once he had it in his mouth(for fear he would concentrate on me and stop eating) that he then realized it was dead and then decided he did not want it. :headbang:

Anyone out there ever have to convert a very stubborn live only feeder? I really want him converted and do not want to feed him live, but and getting concerned as he now weighs 38 gms less than when I bought him.

Advice greatly appreciated!

 

[wendhend]

With fussy baby corns, it just seems to be a matter of time before they will convert from live to frozen / thawed. I have never had to convert an adult corn from live to frozen / thawed, but can tell you what works well with converting ball pythons. Instead of trasitioning directly from live to frozen / thawed, trasition using prekilled, served when it is still warm. You can try laying it down for him or presenting it to him on tongs. Tongs usually work best with the ball pythons. Whichever way he takes it, then continue that a few more times. When he is eating prekilled consistently, switch to the frozen / thawed and present it to him exactly how you have been presenting the prekilled, and he just might take it. I can't guarantee it will work great for a corn, but I've had big success with it on my ball pythons. Good luck!

 

[Crazy Colubrids]

Maybe try giving him pre-killed for awhile then go to f/t

 

[Crazy Colubrids]

Oh I guess wendhend just suggested that.

 

[Fatman608]

Hey Asbit,

What about trying a live hopper with a zombie dancing F/T hopper after the live.

Or do the zombie dance but do not stop moving it so he will think it is still alive because you almost had him several times.

Love the Fatman

 

[Nanci]

I might try a rat pink or small fuzzy.

 

[Asbit]

Thank you for all of the ideas guys, I will get started on these. I do have a few questions for you guys though.

1. @ Wendy and Garry, for fresh/pre-killed how do you do that with out the mouse biting you?

2. @ Nanci, the rat pinks or small fuzzies, do you men try those F/T or pre-killed?

3. @ The Fatman, that is what my next step was going to be, just had not done it as I was afraid it might scare him because my hand and tongs would have to be moving so close to his head.

 

[Fatman608]

Hey Asbit,

I know you are not going to like the way I do it. Place the mouse in a plastic zip lock bag and whack the mouse against a door or counter top or wall. You got to do it hard to kill him the first time. Or grab mouse by the tail and whack it behind the head on something. The only problem with this method is if you miss and only break his noise you get blood all over the place.

Ok - the best way is to place a screwdriver across the mouse's neck and pull back on the tail toward the head and the neck will break very quick and easy.

Sorry for not having better ideas.

Love the Fatman

 

[Asbit]

Actually those were better ideas than what I thought I was going to have to do. I thought I was going to have to hold it in my hands and try to twist it's neck while it tried to get away!

Not that having to kill it myself is all to pleasant but if it is something I have to do to get him onto F/T then I will.

 

[Crazy Colubrids]

I grab them by the tail and hit the head on something hard. But like fatman said they sometimes bleed from the nose so just have some paper towel handy.

 

[wendhend]

Thank you for all of the ideas guys, I will get started on these. I do have a few questions for you guys though.

1. @ Wendy and Garry, for fresh/pre-killed how do you do that with out the mouse biting you?

I pre-kill mine by placing them in a tied double shopping bag and then whacking them against the wall. It sounds a little brutal, but it is super clean and instant. They don't squeal or bleed at all.

Another way I discovered (by accident while mouse cage-cleaning) is that if you put a mouse in a really small container (8-12 ounce size, with or without air holes) it will just die within about 15 minutes. I guess it's kind of like a gas chamber effect. I don't know if they suffer or not, though.

 

[Nanci]

I was thinking of FT rat pinks. My snakes LOVE them.

To kill a mouse, you do cervical dislocation. You hold its head still, and pull the tail until the neck separates. That is the most humane way.

 

[Asbit]

So obviously this is the stupid statement of the year, but I'm gonna say it anyway.... the tail never rips off before you manage to kill the mouse?

 

[wstphal]

Nope. It might with little mice, I've never done it with anything smaller than a large hopper, but it works fine. It's gruesome to do but very very quick. I worked in a lab years ago for a few months, and that was how it was done there as CO2 would have caused some of the research to turn out wrong.

 

[wendhend]

So obviously this is the stupid statement of the year, but I'm gonna say it anyway.... the tail never rips off before you manage to kill the mouse?

Just don't try it on a young rat. I had a very bad experience with that. It completely degloved his tail and he squealed like crazy.... until I bag-whacked him and got the job done. It probably works fine for mice, though.

 

[dude111]

I found a video on youtube on how to do it.
WARNING DO NOT WATCH THE VIDEO IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE THE MOUSE GETTING PREKILLED AS THE VIDEO SHOWS HOW TO DO SO.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Eq71HAWEu0

 

[Asbit]

A little update...

Sat I bought a live hopper and took it home and did the whole cervical dislocation thing and still I had to do at least 5-8 min of zombie dancing, pretending the mouse was crawling on him etc. As well I had to feed him in the corner of his tub with the lid barely open because as soon as I opened it all the way got distracted like my ADHD children and paid no attention to the mouse. Finally he bit it and I kept on with the tugging until he coiled it and then I still tugged a few more times until he really tightened around it.

After that he ate it in about 2 min or less, he ate it like there was no tomorrow!! So I am so happy I got some food into him. Next time I will try the exact same method but with the F/T mouse. I sure hope he does not stay such a PITA to feed as it is rather time consuming and I really prefer feeding in a separate bucket!! Such a butt head this one is!

Thank you guys for all of the help so far!!!