How do you feel about God.

[Tavia]

Do I believe that there are criminals who truly believe in God? Absolutely. Are you trying to tell me ALL those catholic priests don't believe in a deity?

I am an atheist. I do what is right not because some Father figure told me, but because I have no native desire to do harm. I have returned money when I've found out that I've been given too much change, because I don't want the cashier to get in trouble. I've helped people pay for treatments on their pets, knowing full well that they might never pay me back. I "herd" children when I'm around them, because I don't want anyone to experience the devastation of having a child be lost, injured, or kidnapped. I offer food to homeless people who ask me for money.

There's not god making me behave this way. I can think my to good behaviour with ease. "Harm, by definition, is bad. Therefore, harming someone is bad. Therefore not doing harm is good, and helping is better!" No divine reward, no terrible judgement needed.

If someone *needs* a god to tell them that stealing, raping, and cheating is bad, that individual worries me.


I would like to postulate once more:

For all the believers, and more specifically the christians, who do NOT believe that non-believers go to hell:

Where do we go?

Why Christianity? Didn't Jesus say that the only way to God is through him? Doesn't that discount the idea that non-believers get to go to heaven, which leaves only hell?

I was staying out of this debate but since this question seemed to be genuine, I'll describe what my belief and the beliefs of my fellow Christian group, for lack of a better term, is. We believe that "hell" is not an actual place of eternal torment but rather refers to the common grave of mankind. We believe that when you die, you cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 and Psalms 146:3,4 says that as do other places in the Bible. We believe that death is the price of sin, sin was inherited through Adam and so everyone alive is a sinner. If you die, then you've paid the price of your sins and will most likely be resurrected. John 5:28,29. Acts 24:15. We do believe that the only way to God is through Jesus, since he sacrificed his life as a ransom, paying the price for everyone to have the chance to live forever, without sin or death. The unrighteous ones mentioned who will be resurrected after Armaggodon, will then have the chance to decide if they want to follow God and live peacefully under his rule. We just believe that if you know God's laws and believe that he is real, has the right to require certain things of you and is the rightful ruler of the universe and a good ruler, you ought to be trying to live as he would like you to right now. And we believe that telling people about him, his Kingdom and making disciples is one of the requirements to worshipping him right now. It isn't for us to decide who is deserving of life or not. While we believe that there will be a reward to doing what's right, everlasting life on a perfect earth (Psalms 37:29) and that you might be "punished" for not doing what's right, ceasing to exist permanently, with no possibility of being resurrected, our focus is more on the fact that we believe God is the rightful ruler, has the right to require certain things and that these requirements are actually the right way to live and good for you, not a burden. Therefor to try your best to do that now is the right thing to do in itself, not because you are wanting a reward or to avoid being punished.

Personally, I'd agree that if hell existed as a place of eternal torment, I wouldn't worship the God that made it either. Because a God like that would not be a God of justice. I can't think of anyone, and there are quite a few who come to mind from history, that have done such terrible things that they would actually deserve to be in everlasting torment.

 

[Shiari]

Aaaaaand this is the sort of "christians" I grew up around:

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/11/30/1977453/small-pike-county-church-votes.html

 

[starsevol]

Aaaaaand this is the sort of "christians" I grew up around:

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/11/30/1977453/small-pike-county-church-votes.html

I don't consider myself a christian, but it seems to me that people who call themselves that are supposed to be all about loving thy neighbor.
I guess I might be a better christian than they are in that case.

Living a nice decent life is supposed to be trying to make your way through this world as best you can, and not hurting others along the way. Telling someone they can't sing at a church because of the amount of melanin in someone's skin is hurtful and wrong, and not any way to live.

 

[Tara80]

Atheists seeking same rights as other religious organizations: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-military-atheists-20111114,0,7258479.story

 

[Nova_C]

Atheists seeking same rights as other religious organizations: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-military-atheists-20111114,0,7258479.story

Can I ask what your intention is with linking this? You didn't include your own analysis of this article, so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say.

Regarding these two quotes:

So generalizing all "Christians" with EXTREMISTS of any particular religious group really seems logical, right? This idea blows my mind, especially if you consider the diversity of belief systems within Christianity alone!

This does not mean all religious people are bad.

I would like a quote where I generalized that all Christians were extremists, or all religious people were bad, because I didn't and I am really offended that you would strawman what I'm saying like that.

Alternatively go back and actually read what I posted, because it seems you have significantly misunderstood what I wrote.

 

[Tara80]

As I said earlier, I'm not on either side of the fence. There's just too much to this topic (God) that we don't know and understand as humans. I try very hard to not be narrow minded on this topic.

As for the article. I think that there shouldn't be allowances for one 'group' and not another. But I've always believed that just from the 'fairness' standpoint. Smoke breaks are an acceptable thing every hour where I work but if you don't smoke, you're expected to continue working? Nope, not gonna fly. There are a few of us that take 'carrot' breaks where we feel the need to go eat a carrot every hour...

 

[Tavia]

Off topic, but that smoke break thing used to drive my mom crazy at her last job. About half the workers were smokers and the rest weren't. The smokers all got way more breaks than the others.

 

[iculatr]

Aaaaaand this is the sort of "christians" I grew up around:

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/11/30/1977453/small-pike-county-church-votes.html

Well, I definitely don't think what they did was right, but my point in even participating in this thread was to say that generalizing all "Christians" or religious groups together is far from accurate. I am aware that some people unfortunately take that stand, but I'd like to know what grounds they stand on, as someone else's relationship should have nothing to do with being a part of a church, no less whether or not they are Christian.

 

[iculatr]

I would like a quote where I generalized that all Christians were extremists, or all religious people were bad, because I didn't and I am really offended that you would strawman what I'm saying like that.

Alternatively go back and actually read what I posted, because it seems you have significantly misunderstood what I wrote.

Maybe you meant something else, and if I misunderstood what you were trying to say, I apologize, but it was in response to your message on Page 33, post #327. You wrote the following:

In fact, I submit that the aspect of retribution or reward from a god has made humanity less moral, not more. Religious motivation drives people to commit terrible atrocities because it is god's command, the right thing to do, and even if it feels wrong, you'll be rewarded for doing it. Religion subverts someone's natural sense of right and wrong with the promise of eternal reward for doing something that furthers that organization's cause.

 

[Forcedexile]

Off topic, but that smoke break thing used to drive my mom crazy at her last job. About half the workers were smokers and the rest weren't. The smokers all got way more breaks than the others.

yeah I had a co-worker who started smoking about 2 years after she started working there and we were forced to let her take smoke breaks every 30min-an hour. like she's even addicted after only 2 weeks of smoking....

 

[Nova_C]

Maybe you meant something else, and if I misunderstood what you were trying to say, I apologize, but it was in response to your message on Page 33, post #327. You wrote the following:

Well, I guess I could add the qualifier 'can', as in, 'Religious motivation can cause...'

However, the bible itself describes the Israelites' genocides as they exterminated all the people that had settled in Israel before they got there, all at God's command. Can you deny that this hasn't continued to be the case in most modern religions?

And because I know someone's going to say that there are genocides without religion, I will add that ideological or racial purity are just as dangerous in my mind because they all have the same problem of a structure of beliefs based in dogmatic philosophies.

 

[iculatr]

Well, I guess I could add the qualifier 'can', as in, 'Religious motivation can cause...'

However, the bible itself describes the Israelites' genocides as they exterminated all the people that had settled in Israel before they got there, all at God's command. Can you deny that this hasn't continued to be the case in most modern religions?

And because I know someone's going to say that there are genocides without religion, I will add that ideological or racial purity are just as dangerous in my mind because they all have the same problem of a structure of beliefs based in dogmatic philosophies.

I hope you understand I wasn't trying to single you out or anything like that. I probably should not have included a quote from anyone in my post. All the previous generalizations and examples of extreme behavior as some sort of religious norm were getting old. If someone needs to reply to this thread, why can't they state what they believe and leave it at that? Why did it need to turn into cutting down someone else's beliefs? It's funny how a thread asking "How do you feel about God" spurred so many posts that not only didn't answer the original question and keep it at that, but rather turn it into what seems to be a war between Christianity vs. agnosticism vs. atheism. I wonder when someone is going to start another thread about sex and politics...

 

[kathylove]

"...If someone needs to reply to this thread, why can't they state what they believe and leave it at that..."

Because it is human nature to continue to debate a subject that one is passionate about, and that there is no real answer to that will satisfy even most people, let alone everyone!

Whenever we discuss religion, politics, abortion, or any controversial subject that fires up emotions, don't expect people to just mention their views and leave it at that. It is difficult to imagine "normal" humans who could or would do that, lol!

OTOH, I think most are "playing well with others" and have provided a lot to think about - even though it is unlikely that anyone will totally change their beliefs after this thread ends.

 

[iculatr]

"...If someone needs to reply to this thread, why can't they state what they believe and leave it at that..."

Because it is human nature to continue to debate a subject that one is passionate about, and that there is no real answer to that will satisfy even most people, let alone everyone!

Whenever we discuss religion, politics, abortion, or any controversial subject that fires up emotions, don't expect people to just mention their views and leave it at that. It is difficult to imagine "normal" humans who could or would do that, lol!

OTOH, I think most are "playing well with others" and have provided a lot to think about - even though it is unlikely that anyone will totally change their beliefs after this thread ends.

Unfortunately, all it takes is one bad apple to ruin everything. keeping it civil would make it a lot more interesting for everyone. Some people have, but clearly others have not.

 

[Outcast]

I for one have been pleasantly surprised, the few that made infuriating comments early on have not returned, and everyone seems, for now, to have been writing in nice ways. Just because one is Passionate about their stance on a subject, does not mean one has to tear the others down. In fact, this is probably the kindest thread on the subject that I have participated in, on this site.

 

[Tavia]

I'd avoided looking at this thread for quite awhile, because I thought it would be ugly but was pleasantly surprised by how civil most had been too, though I only read about the the last 8 pages or so.

 

[kathylove]

There will always be a few who can't control themselves, no matter the subject or the venue. Perhaps the value in this thread is more to show that civil debate IS possible, rather than to actually change minds. Maybe those who have trouble expressing themselves without rancor will learn the truth of the old saying about "catching more flies with honey than vinegar", haha!

 

[Michael823]

I think the biggest reason why people go so astray and start tearing down the walls of how other people believe, is because in today's society God and religion are almost one in the same.
To many religious people, being against religion comes across as being against God. And to many non-religious people, believing in God comes across as being for religion. Of course that's not always the case, but I think it's enough of the case to say that it has truth to it.

And it's hard to separate how we feel philosophically, when so much of our lives are physically confined to a set of beliefs that other people have set for us, many of which are in the name of God. Almost saying that our relationship with God has to follow a guideline that religion has set forth. So even discussing God becomes an open door to point out our disagreements, because it's easier to address the issues that have a real, negative impact on our lives, rather than having an intimate conversation of our truest thoughts and beliefs.

I would say, though, that this seems to be a good conversation. It might be the touchiest subject to discuss, so you almost have to expect disagreements, but at least the disagreements here have been civil (from what I've read).

 

[Nanci]

Resurrecting the God Thread!

I read this today on Facebook. Seems like good advice, just something nice to think about. Christian or not.

Written by Rev. James Martin:

For a lark yesterday, on my 50th birthday, I Tweeted 12 things that I wish I had known at 25. Or more accurately, 12 things that, had I put them into action, would have made my life a lot easier. Some are bits of advice that wisdom figures have told me and took years to sink in. Others are the result of some hard knocks. A few are insights from the great spiritual masters that I've adapted for my own life. Maybe a few will help someone you know who's 25. Maybe one or two will help you.

1. First up: Stop worrying so much! It's useless. (I.e. Jesus was right.)

2. Being a saint means being yourself. Stop trying to be someone else and just be your best self. Saves you heartache.

3. There's no right way to pray, any more than there's a right way to be a friend. What's "best" is what works best for you.

4. Remember three things and save yourself lots of unneeded heartache: You're not God. This ain't heaven. Don't act like a jerk.

5. Your deepest, most heartfelt desires are God's desires for you. And vice versa. Listen. And follow them.

6. Within you is the idea of your best self. Act as if you were that person and you will become that person, with God's grace.

7. Don't worry too much about the worst that can happen. Even if it happens, God is with you, and you can handle it. Really.

8. You can't force people to approve of you, agree with you, be impressed with you, love you or even like you. Stop trying.

9. When we compare, we are usually imagining someone else's life falsely. So our real-life loses out. I.e. Compare and despair.

10. Even when you finally realized the right thing, or the Christian thing, to do, it can still be hard to do. Do it anyway.

11. Seven things to say frequently: I love you. Thank you. Thank you, God. Forgive me. I'm so happy for you! Why not? Yes.

12. Peace and joy come after asking God to free you -- from anything that keeps you from being loving and compassionate.

 

[joann42]

I wish I could believe in God.It makes life a whole lot easier.I was in a very strict church for over 15yrs and well now Im not.Ive seen to much to believe that there is any thing controlling all this c*ap that goes on.Babies dying of cancer is my biggest reason for not believing,,that kind of suffering can not come from a god that can control everything.If there is one and he lets that kind of thing happen well so much for him protecting us..Cause if he can let an innocent baby suffer like that he sure isnt going to help the rest of us out.