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How do you feel about God.

It's sure hard to wrap your head around. I work in health care and have seen more than my share of unimaginable suffering. I guess the only way to not lose hope, to not burn out, to not go crazy is to believe there is a purpose.

I should add I've also seen quite a few medical miracles!
 
I think being an atheist actually helped me appreciate those medical 'miracles' more, because I no longer stand there asking "Why this person and not that one there as well?" To know that an accident is purely that actually gives me great comfort. I can stand beside someone gravely ill and know that if they do not get better it wasn't because some deity wouldn't help them, it's simply cruddy luck coupled with the fact that we all die.

When I was sick, I placed my faith in my fabulous nurses and doctors. I trusted them to do their jobs well out of personal pride, to comfort me when I expressed need for comfort and reassurance, and to do all they could to make me well. And for the most part they did.
 
Yes, the "miracle saves" have always bothered me...

If I was saved by some miracle from disaster, whether medical or car accident, etc, and decided it was because of God's favor, then how would I feel if I was the one who suffered some horrible, painful consequence when somebody else got the miracle save? Would it be because God decided that person was more deserving of a miracle than I am? I never could understand how somebody felt that God saved them in a particular instance without also feeling that God would have an equal hand in not saving them in some other instance. It just never seemed logical to me.
 
It always makes me cringe to hear of a "miracle survivor" from some sort of tragedy. Does the press simply not care how painful that must be to those who lost someone? Or do they not realise it?
 
Can't remember if I have mentioned this before, but honestly, to me, the only way this all makes even a little bit of sense is if this life is merely a test. Maybe the final test. The classical definition of "purgatory". It's HERE that you have to prove your mettle to go on to Heaven or Hell. Or perhaps if you fail, you simply start over again till you finally get the message. Some maybe for all eternity, not able to get "the message". Certainly having to live life after life in this purgatory could surely be considered as hell.

So yeah, if you look around you and see all the pain and suffering that God apparently allows us to have to go through, it certainly does make you pause and think about just how important that message we are supposed to learn really must be.
 
That does make more sense than some theories I have read. It sounds somewhat like the Buddhist philosophy of reincarnation until a soul gets it right and can be one with God, I believe.

I was always impressed with Buddhists because I think they may be the only major religion that has never gone to war, had an Inquisition or Jihad, or killed large numbers of people in the name of God (at least, as far as I know). I have always planned to learn more about their philosophy - it intrigues me, for sure. The only part that never set well with me is the idea that the individual needs to submerge, or kind of lose oneself. But I haven't studied it enough to understand everything about it. But I believe your theory would be closer to Buddhism than to any other religion / philosophy.
 
I believe there is a purpose to everything that happens. I really don't think that God allows such suffering for no reason. That baby with cancer suffers, yes, but shortly that baby is in heaven for all eternity. The parents of that baby may be the ones needing a "test of faith" or "a lesson learned". As for why one person has a miracle survival and not another may be that the one that has died is simply ready for heaven while the other may still need to "learn a lesson" or has another purpose still needing to be done. Believing that it's just dumb luck, good or bad, just doesn't seem right to me in instances like those. Just because we can't see or understand God's purpose doesn't mean there isn't one.

Having faith in doctors and nurses is wonderful, but not all doctors and nurses are created equal. They are only human and not all of them are as compassionate as others or as skilled as others. Having both skill and a wonderful bedside manner seems to be more of a gift and a patient needing to find that gifted doctor to have faith in when they have no faith in God may be how God supplies His comfort to that person in their time of need.
 
I don't understand "tests of faith". All I can think of is Job where God murdered his whole family just to see what he'd do. That is not loving by any stretch of the word. Also making someone innocent suffer to teach someone else a lesson is not that 'loving' either.

And there are plenty of people who believe that child is actually in hell.
 
Shiari said:
I don't understand "tests of faith". All I can think of is Job where God murdered his whole family just to see what he'd do. That is not loving by any stretch of the word. Also making someone innocent suffer to teach someone else a lesson is not that 'loving' either.

And there are plenty of people who believe that child is actually in hell.
Click to expand...

Did you see what was given to Job for his unfailing faith that God had a better plan for him? I think it was something of, everything he had 10x over. It has been a long time since I have read the story of Job.

I am a firm believer that everything that happens has a reason for doing so.
 
Outcast said:
Did you see what was given to Job for his unfailing faith that God had a better plan for him? I think it was something of, everything he had 10x over. It has been a long time since I have read the story of Job.

I am a firm believer that everything that happens has a reason for doing so.
Click to expand...

That doesn't matter to me. His children were murdered on what was basically a whim. A bet with the devil. If someone murdered my children only to give me greater riches in the future, I wouldn't care. The most important part is that *my children* would still be dead. Nothing could *ever* make up for that.
 
The mere thought of accidents, ilnesses and miracle healings just being bad luck or good luck, comforts me in case such thing happens. I don't wonder why it happened to me and not to someone else, it were just circumstances and of course consequences of my and other people's choices..... that is quite liberating for me. Just recently my mother told me she talked with my sister about how we handle trouble and pain. They agreed that I, like my father, are able to get things behind me and move on way better than my mother and my sister. They pitty themselves which I hardly do. Both my father and I are happier with our lives most of the time than my sister and mother. If I'd think that a deity was putting me to the test, I'd get crazy trying to find out what the lesson would be... what is to learn for an average person with a good heart from loosing family or friends or experiencing miracle healings? It's not that the 'donkey' holes on earth get all the pain... many very good people are hurt tremendously. Nope, I really don't see the logic how believing in a purpose would comfort you.... Just darn tell me what I need to learn dear deity, if I need to.... why not just explain it instead of causing pain and suffering to all those people you created and are said to love? What if a father beats up his kid, without explaining what it did wrong? Society does not approve of that, even if the kid is told why it is beaten... so why does a baby need to suffer from cancer before it gets the deserved place in heaven? To teach the parents something? Nice way to reward it... why not just take it quickly? Of course, one can hope to find out when granted acces to heaven, but why not just simply when living on Earth?

Further, other Christian people would say the Devil causes the bad stuff... so, what is it? God playing games or the Devil being his bad self? And how does God choose whom to save from the Devil? He sure does not save good people only....

I don't see how people believing all this stuff make it work in their heads... it is just way less complicated to just try to be the best person you can be and handle troubles and pain by being strong and being rational about the why's... the answer to that to me is; accidents happen because people make mistakes and nature takes it course without considering our needs and emotions, natural events and mistakes both just happen and we can be the victims of both.
 
The point is that God has the power to end suffering and says he loves us like our children yet I bet there isnt many parents who would let a kid suffer if they had the power to stop it...God is a big meanie..
 
Here's how I see it. I was raised in a strong christian home. I was raised to believe that there was this great all knowing being that had control over the universe and if you didn't put your entire trust in this person, you would go to hell.

As I grew I started to develope my own ideas and opinions. I find it silly to think that there's such a being. I am basically an agnostic. If you trust god to guide you and trust he will keep you safe, why do you look both ways when you cross the street?
 
Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him god?

-Epicurus
 
I think that some people mix the concepts of Guardian Angel and God...
IMHO, God is not a babysitter... there's a certain degree that a person should have for his own preservation, and when one is not willing to help himself, he can't expect said help to arrive from somewhere else- this is in response to Carinata's question about crossing the road.

As I see it, we came here to learn... and like it or not, emotional trauma and pain are the most powerful catalysts for change and growth- such a process is painful and difficult, we do not really undergo significant changes unless some situation in life calls for the change to be made... that's how lessons are learned.

Sometimes, we go through something for the benefit of another- so we can set an example to others who go through the same ordeal.

God is not a personalized Guardian Angel IMHO... I believe there's a plan... and I believe we have quite a bit of choice as to how things will progress in any given situation.
On a global scope, over hundreds of years... we can't really fathom what something we go through will trigger on... maybe our dealing with a certain situation will affect our grandchildren? What our family goes through definitely resonated beyond a single generation.

We will also not appreciate something good if we have nothing to compare it with. A completely care-free existence will not be celebrated… because appreciation comes being grateful, and you can’t be grateful for something when you don’t know anything different since there’s no alternative.

If you never knew hunger and everyone would always be satiated… would you know to be grateful for it? We do now because we know there are many starving people all over the world.

I don’t believe this place was created for us to have fun in… we’re definitely here to learn, and school can be very tough.

Regardless though, why is this debate even being held? It really doesn’t matter, all opinions are equal and it is pointless to argue.
 
Well, Oren, I resurrected this thread because I thought the ideas I posted in #359 were all-around good advice. Take the religious references out, they are still nice things to know when you are 25. Or whatever.

But this debate has been interesting! I think we've plumbed depths in people, discovered things we didn't know, got along for the most part- a good discussion!
 
Debating can be just interesting as an activity on its own, some people are not able to see it that way and seem to think that debating is always meant to attack to people or to agree in the end. I have been thinking the latter for a long time too, but mostly through discussions on this board I learned to understand that not everybody has the same set of values and ethical beliefs to begin with, which makes it impossible to agree on a subject. Understanding each others logic and reasons though, can help bring people together and to respect each other.
 
I don't disagree the general notion that discussions can enrich people and assist us in understanding each other- however... people are just not cautious -enough- when they speak their mind about religious beliefs. The "sub-text" is almost guaranteed to offend someone.

It is a very sensitive matter, and in forums you do not have any indication of tone, body language or anything of the sort... misunderstandings happen frequently.

Believing or not believing in God is a very personal thing, which IMHO has very little to do with logic... few people believe in God because of logic... there's no way to prove or disprove the existence of such a being- you either believe, or you don't, and you will find justifications to support that basic choice.

The choice to respect another is not intertwined with understanding- usually it is only when a person respects another, is there -any- chance for them to hear the other out and for understanding to emerge.

So... I'm not condemning anyone for the existence of the thread... but I do believe it can and possibly will offend people with sentences like:

"Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him god?

-Epicurus "

" If you trust god to guide you and trust he will keep you safe, why do you look both ways when you cross the street? "

" I guess God is not a micro-manager".

All of these express opinions, which are appreciated of course, but I feel that they are sharp and very strong for a matter that is very delicate.

I don't mind the fact that people share their opinions... I do think though that manner is perhaps not as considerate as it could be... I can definitely see people being offended by it.

Just my two cents' worth.
 
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