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How do you feel about God.

Okay. Sorry if I offended anyone, I really didn't mean to. That quote was written over 2000 years ago, and I thought that it kinda melded into the discussion. It does raise questions about that deity, though. I don't feel like the other sentences posted were offensive.
 
I do wonder why the subject is so delicate for many? If you are a believer and you know you are right, why feel insulted if others express their opinion about it in a rational way? I don't want to insult people who believe, but being so sensitive to rational comments for me suggests that they just don't want to hear about it because they cannot deny that rational logic brings reasonable questions to the subject, like the qoute from Epicurus. No bad words, no sarcasm, just applying logic to show contradicting elements of what people say they believe about God. I do appreciate however those who are able to acknowledge the contradictions and just choose to believe that someday they might understand. They feel no reason to feel insulted since they have the same questions.

To be honest I have trouble to really respect people (when it comes to their beliefs) whom just blindly believe in God, and feel insulted when people queston their believes. For those religion blinds them for the rest of the world and usually they cannot respect people who don't believe (the way they do). Respect needs to be earned. However, from this discussion I learned that many Christians do believe but realise it is a choice and it might not be the (only) right one in the end. I also learned that they consciously choose to believe to be able to cope with bad stuff, similar to how I deal with bad stuff by believing I just had bad luck. Those people gained my respect concerning their beliefs about God.
 
Because when the nature of something or someone you hold dear is questioned, you have to be a really special not to get offended.

I don't know many people who will respond well if I'd suggest that their significant other is cheating on them.

Belief systems and personal choices are a part of a person's personal space, and I am not surprised that an un-permitted intrusion evokes such a response.

"people who follow blindly"- on whose definition? do you think you are in a position to judge who does so because of justifiable reasons and who isn't? It's a very subjective thing. Where are there standards for such a thing and is it really right to set them to everyone in the same way?

Respecting people has very little to do with what they choose to believe in. If respecting others is conditional... it's not really respect, just accepting what is acceptable in your eyes... tolerance is towards everyone. I do not count, of course, the practice of anything that harms another in any way... I think we can all agree that's not something which needs tolerating.
 
Kokopelli said:
I do not count, of course, the practice of anything that harms another in any way... I think we can all agree that's not something which needs tolerating.
Click to expand...

This is actually interesting because people need to do some impressive mental gymnastics to deny that religion has harmed many people. Which is not to say that religion, by definition, is harmful, but that there seems to be a disconnect between believers acting on behalf of their faith and their feelings of responsibility for the consequences of those actions.

Of course, I'm cynical enough that I'm convinced that the vast majority of religious leaders, particularly in large organizations such as the Catholic church, do not actually believe in the god they claim to worship but instead have co-opted the faith for personal gain.
 
Wow - the last few pages have had some GREAT thoughts (IMHO)...

Hard to remember them all to comment on them! Of course, anyone who doesn't like to debate religion / God, etc, should probably avoid this thread. But I have learned a few things here, although not changed my views in general.

I was not offended by the 2000 year old quote - it sounded very logical to me. OTOH, the next post by Oren also made a lot of sense. He spoke about learning to appreciate joy through experiencing sorrow - or even the minor good and bad things that happen. I have definitely found that to be true in my life, although I haven't had to suffer through some of the life shattering traumas that some have endured. Maybe that life long learning could support the idea of "reincarnation until we get it right"?

Oren also said:

"...Believing or not believing in God is a very personal thing, which IMHO has very little to do with logic... few people believe in God because of logic... there's no way to prove or disprove the existence of such a being- you either believe, or you don't, and you will find justifications to support that basic choice..."


I think that is EXACTLY true - unfortunately. In my youth, I studied the Bible a bit, and tried to believe in God as described there. But I kept coming back to the fact that, if true, then God gave us the ability to use logic, so it logically follows that we should be able to use that logic to help us believe in Him and whatever He wants for us. What the Bible teaches SHOULD make sense to me, and I just see too many logical holes.

As far as respect and tolerance - there is a difference. I do tolerate a lot of things (not necessarily, or only, religion) I feel are weird or strange, but ok as in "live and let live" - I have my quirks too. I may not really respect the idea of guys wearing their pants half way down their rears, or some other bizarre stuff I see. But it doesn't hurt me, so I am happy to tolerate their quirks if they tolerate mine. I respect their RIGHTS to do what they want, but not necessarily their CHOICES. When it comes to religion, I guess I would respect anyone who believes in any religion that preaches positive messages of tolerance, love, and non-violence. And I would respect any atheist or agnostic who also believes in those principles. But I would not respect, or even have much tolerance of, people who espouse hatred, violence, etc - whether it is through their religion or through some other life philosophy.
 
Would you rather debate abortion or capitol punishment or gay marriage? We can do that too!!
 
Those subjects might even be hotter than this one!

I actually meant to expand this a little:

"...But I kept coming back to the fact that, if true, then God gave us the ability to use logic, so it logically follows that we should be able to use that logic to help us believe in Him and whatever He wants for us. What the Bible teaches SHOULD make sense to me, and I just see too many logical holes..."

I wanted to add that it seems only logical to me that such a God as created the universe and gave us all of the laws of physics, ability to reason and learn, etc, would WANT us to use those abilities to try to ferret out His nature or plans. But it always seemed a little arrogant to me (and I am not trying to offend any religion, just going by my own personal logic) that we humans could say with certainty just what He is or what He wants. It seems to me that we would honor Him more by saying that we are trying to do our best to live good lives, help each other out, and generally be good people while we are still figuring out the nature of God, or even if there IS a God. If we are too "un-evolved" to understand His plans (ie, world famines and other tragedies), then how can we be so certain that we know His nature and demands, as discussed in the Bible or other holy books?

It has always seemed to me that if He is a logical being (how could He not be, if He created the universe?), that He would prefer us to act as I described above, until He chooses to reveal Himself, either in visions, or in the afterlife, or through some other plan we don't yet fathom. How could we possibly get it all right if He is so powerful that we can't understand him? Even if He did guide the hands of men who wrote holy books, they were still written by men, and later translated and handed down through more generations of men. Have you ever played "Chinese telephone" when you were a kid? Everyone gets in a circle, and the first person whispers a message to the next, who repeats it, and the next repeats it, etc. Then the last person says it aloud. It usually bears little resemblance to the original message, and sets everyone to laughing. That is the nature of human memory and recording - it changes as time goes on.
 
Nova_C said:
This is actually interesting because people need to do some impressive mental gymnastics to deny that religion has harmed many people. Which is not to say that religion, by definition, is harmful, but that there seems to be a disconnect between believers acting on behalf of their faith and their feelings of responsibility for the consequences of those actions.

Of course, I'm cynical enough that I'm convinced that the vast majority of religious leaders, particularly in large organizations such as the Catholic church, do not actually believe in the god they claim to worship but instead have co-opted the faith for personal gain.
Click to expand...

The existence or non-existence of God has very little to do with organized religion as far as I'm concerned.

The fact that the people who claim to speak on God's behalf are less then what I'd consider to be perfect, doesn't really affect the way I perceive God. I understand you have a bone to pick with organized religion, but that's not quite the topic of the forum as far as I know.

Nanci- This is a Cornsnake forum, I am sorry for thinking that topics such as this usually do more harm than good and that it's not necessarily the best place for such a discussion to take place in.
 
I have to disagree, Oren. It is "General Chit Chat", and I think pretty much anything is up for discussion - as long as it stays civil. We have a long history here of debating controversial subjects. It rarely changes minds, but does give new understanding and perspectives to those who see the world differently from oneself. I don't understand why anyone would want to limit discussions to corns, or to non controversial subjects. Anyone who is sensitive about such topics should just avoid this thread. I have always been for choice - and I have found this debate very thought provoking.

Discussing non corn subjects with people from a community I like and know is probably what keeps me spending more time here than elsewhere online. I have lots of people (online and off) to talk about herps with. But this is the largest group I spend time with that I get to discuss everything from politics and health care to religion, or just about anything else I can think of. It also helps that there are a number of people here from other countries. We so often get a very American centric view of EVERYTHING that I really value the perspectives of those from other places. They sometimes have knowledge or views outside of my own experiences - difficult to get that from many of the usual places I spend time.
 
Kokopelli said:
Because when the nature of something or someone you hold dear is questioned, you have to be a really special not to get offended.

I don't know many people who will respond well if I'd suggest that their significant other is cheating on them.

Belief systems and personal choices are a part of a person's personal space, and I am not surprised that an un-permitted intrusion evokes such a response.

"people who follow blindly"- on whose definition? do you think you are in a position to judge who does so because of justifiable reasons and who isn't? It's a very subjective thing. Where are there standards for such a thing and is it really right to set them to everyone in the same way?

Respecting people has very little to do with what they choose to believe in. If respecting others is conditional... it's not really respect, just accepting what is acceptable in your eyes... tolerance is towards everyone. I do not count, of course, the practice of anything that harms another in any way... I think we can all agree that's not something which needs tolerating.
Click to expand...

Well than I am pretty special I think... if you'd say my bfr is cheating on me, I'd ask why you think so. If you don't have any proof and are just trying to upset me, why feel offended? I know better... to me it's a sign of being insecure yourself if you'd feel insulted by someone saying that. Of course I would get angry with a person who'd try to upset me because I don't think I deserve that, but why feel offended? I know many people will go out of their mind when someone says stuff like; your mom is a w*ore or I 'made love to' your grandma.... when angry or just because they are donkey holes themselves. I can't understand why people get upset by that... it's only showing the rudeness or inability of the other person to express his anger in a normal way. I guess you know it is not true so why feel insulted? My bfr is like that too....

Of course respect is conditional... you do not respect people harming others yourself... that is conditional respect. Well, I cannot respect people who cannot respect that other people do not believe in God and I have a hard time to respect people who are not at all open to discussion about their believes or any other topic they have an opinion about, they are know-it-alls and do not respect other people's opinions.

I think I explained what 'follow blindly' means to me; without being able to understand that believing in God is a choice and without questioning all that is said about him within your religion. If you simply shut your eyes and ears for people who have valid questions about that, you are pretty blindy following your believes. I have learned however from this discussion that most believers on this board actually are aware of the above and really have chosen to believe. Still, I cannot understand how they can feel better by believing in a God, but I do understand now why they feel it is the best choice to make. It helps them cope with life and that is fine with me. The rare type of believer who follows blindly ain't aware of why he or she believes, I think they are brought up that way and simply are not open for thinking about it themselves, for reasons I do not know.

kathylove said:
Hard to remember them all to comment on them! Of course, anyone who doesn't like to debate religion / God, etc, should probably avoid this thread. But I have learned a few things here, although not changed my views in general.

I was not offended by the 2000 year old quote - it sounded very logical to me. OTOH, the next post by Oren also made a lot of sense. He spoke about learning to appreciate joy through experiencing sorrow - or even the minor good and bad things that happen. I have definitely found that to be true in my life, although I haven't had to suffer through some of the life shattering traumas that some have endured. Maybe that life long learning could support the idea of "reincarnation until we get it right"?

Oren also said:

"...Believing or not believing in God is a very personal thing, which IMHO has very little to do with logic... few people believe in God because of logic... there's no way to prove or disprove the existence of such a being- you either believe, or you don't, and you will find justifications to support that basic choice..."

I think that is EXACTLY true - unfortunately. In my youth, I studied the Bible a bit, and tried to believe in God as described there. But I kept coming back to the fact that, if true, then God gave us the ability to use logic, so it logically follows that we should be able to use that logic to help us believe in Him and whatever He wants for us. What the Bible teaches SHOULD make sense to me, and I just see too many logical holes. .
Click to expand...

Exactly, I cannot really respect people (on this subject) who do not apply logic to their religion, because for me the ultimate feature of humen is the ability to reason and make conscious decisions. Why not use what God gave to you :p

Kathy, for me you are a great example of someone I respect for your way of reasoning and wording that for us.

Nanci said:
Would you rather debate abortion or capitol punishment or gay marriage? We can do that too!!
Click to expand...

Very interesting too! You'll start the topics?
 
SnakeAround said:
Still, I cannot understand how they can feel better by believing in a God, but I do understand now why they feel it is the best choice to make. It helps them cope with life and that is fine with me.
Click to expand...

This observation disturbs me. I don't "need" God, or a belief in God, to cope with my life. If there was some sort of, I don't know, discovery or proof or something tomorrow that absolutely proved that God didn't exist, I wouldn't fall apart. I'd carry on the same way I have been. I'd be disappointed about the lack of an afterlife, but I am not living my life today with the promise of heaven held over my head for good behavior, so that wouldn't change a thing, really. I don't need God to prop me up, but I _do_ enjoy a conversation now and then. I like to say thank you, frequently, for things that are going right. I like to say, during critical procedures in my job in the medical profession, dear God- we could use a little help right about now! He always comes through!

I am not sure how my faith developed as a child, except that it was taught to me by my parents and Godparents and the church, and I don't know why it didn't fade away through my teenage years. I do know that when my parents were aging and ailing and dying and dead that the belief in the afterlife became a great comfort. I don't know- my faith is just there, and I try to follow the golden rule and be a good person. I'd be that way anyway, God or no God, as I'm sure many non-Christians are.
 
SnakeAround said:
Well, if he has any proof... I'm open to it!
Click to expand...

Actually I was going by the satanic bible by Anton Lavey. Its got nothing to do with Satan really. I think that name is just there for attention grabbing.

Most of the principals in it are along the lines of "you are your own god" and basically saying you should do what you think is best, so long as it doesn't have negative impact on the lives of others. Its a pretty interesting read.

As for actual religious stuff. I am god. Why? My universe didn't exist until I was born, my universe and yours are two entirely separate entities. Yes things existed before I was born. One definition of the universe is roughly (taken from google) "A particular sphere of activity, interest, or experience." hence why I say my universe didn't exist until I existed.

I don't believe in some omnipresent deity looking over my life, nor a guiding hand. I also find the idea of the christian god to be a perversion. Why do I feel that way? Well, lets put it this way, who spent a few hundred years trying to wipe out Christianity? And now where is the epicenter of the roman catholic church. Modern Christianity is a bastardization of the original religion which really has very few if any similarities to how it was started.

But I always stick with the simple "I am god" line.
 
Nanci said:
This observation disturbs me. I don't "need" God, or a belief in God, to cope with my life. If there was some sort of, I don't know, discovery or proof or something tomorrow that absolutely proved that God didn't exist, I wouldn't fall apart. I'd carry on the same way I have been. I'd be disappointed about the lack of an afterlife, but I am not living my life today with the promise of heaven held over my head for good behavior, so that wouldn't change a thing, really. I don't need God to prop me up, but I _do_ enjoy a conversation now and then. I like to say thank you, frequently, for things that are going right. I like to say, during critical procedures in my job in the medical profession, dear God- we could use a little help right about now! He always comes through!

I am not sure how my faith developed as a child, except that it was taught to me by my parents and Godparents and the church, and I don't know why it didn't fade away through my teenage years. I do know that when my parents were aging and ailing and dying and dead that the belief in the afterlife became a great comfort. I don't know- my faith is just there, and I try to follow the golden rule and be a good person. I'd be that way anyway, God or no God, as I'm sure many non-Christians are.
Click to expand...

Well, this is what I meant to say; they use it to cope with life in hard times. Maybe 'need' is not the right word to use in your case, but you do 'use' your faith to help you through difficult stuff, right? I do think it is interesting that you say my observation that you need your belief disturbs you. Why do you want to make clear yo do not need your belief? You do not want to look like you are dependant on it because......? I'm truly interested in that because I thought to have figured out that many Christian people on here really choose to believe because it was the best option for them to cope with bad stuff in life. Why would it disturb them if they were said to need their belief than?

By the way, why can their not be an afterlife without the existence of a God?
 
wowfood said:
Actually I was going by the satanic bible by Anton Lavey. Its got nothing to do with Satan really. I think that name is just there for attention grabbing.

Most of the principals in it are along the lines of "you are your own god" and basically saying you should do what you think is best, so long as it doesn't have negative impact on the lives of others. Its a pretty interesting read.

As for actual religious stuff. I am god. Why? My universe didn't exist until I was born, my universe and yours are two entirely separate entities. Yes things existed before I was born. One definition of the universe is roughly (taken from google) "A particular sphere of activity, interest, or experience." hence why I say my universe didn't exist until I existed.

I don't believe in some omnipresent deity looking over my life, nor a guiding hand.
But I always stick with the simple "I am god" line.
Click to expand...

Excellent post, I fully believe in '"you are your own god" and basically saying you should do what you think is best, so long as it doesn't have negative impact on the lives of others.'. That is my main guide line in life. I knew I would not be dissapointed asking you :)
 
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