Is this guy a masque?

[OregonSnake]

Hi everyone! I was was curious about this guy's morph. I bought him as a lavender, but it looks like he might have something else as well. He's got a nearly clear belly, so I'm thinking probably a masque. The only belly checkers are near his sides. Any other ideas? Thanks!

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[MINGA]

If the belly is like the pic below than it is a masque.

Yours look like an extreme Masque to me....do you have a pic of the belly?

Maybe it is also Bloodred but not that diffused.

 

[Dragonling]

Masque yes (and likely super), diffused no. I'd wager it might be het diffused though, probably from a plasma pairing.

 

[daddio207]

Who did you buy him from ?

I ask because most reputable breeders will correctly list the genetics if you bought it directly. If it was bought from a big box pet store then breeders will simplify the genetics listed by dropping traits and hets.

Looks like a Lavender hatchling to me :shrugs:

 

[OregonSnake]

I bought him from Steve Roylance. According to him, the hatchling could have masque and might be the result of a pairing with a plasma involved.

Here's a couple belly picture.

I hope this okay. He's a bit wild, so it's nearly impossible to take a decent picture of him out of his cage.


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[daddio207]

I bought him from Steve Roylance. According to him, the hatchling could have masque and might be the result of a pairing with a plasma involved.

"could have" and "might be" meaning your snake could have het for masque and a parent might be het for plasma?

 

[OregonSnake]

One of his parents may have been a plasma and/or a masque.


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[ocboat]

I actually spoke to Steve about this snake. He said that it is very possible that it could be het or homo for Masque and that he thinks it may have been produced by a Plasma parent. He breeds so many snakes that he was not sure what breeding produced this snake. All we wanted was a male lavender and we did not inquire about hets when we ordered the snake. I think it's pretty clear that there is Masque involved and it's very possible that it may be het for plasma also.

 

[Myca]

That is a very pretty snake. I hope you will update as he grows.

 

[Dragonling]

Masque yes (and likely super), diffused no. I'd wager it might be het diffused though, probably from a plasma pairing.

I actually spoke to Steve about this snake. He said that it is very possible that it could be het or homo for Masque and that he thinks it may have been produced by a Plasma parent.

*cough cough* :dancer:

 

[MINGA]

Masque yes (and likely super), diffused no. I'd wager it might be het diffused though, probably from a plasma pairing.

if it is "super" masque that would mean both parents are masque... at least both min. het. for masque or?

I am asking because i want to know if anyone did some investigation if there is a visual difference between het. masque and hom. masque (super)?
Is there something proved that the ones with an "extrem" splitbelly and less headpattern are truly the superform of masque?

Many thanks in advance guys.

 

[daddio207]

Who did you buy him from ?

I ask because most reputable breeders will correctly list the genetics if you bought it directly. If it was bought from a big box pet store then breeders will simplify the genetics listed by dropping traits and hets.

Looks like a Lavender hatchling to me :shrugs:

I actually spoke to Steve about this snake. He said that it is very possible that it could be het or homo for Masque and that he thinks it may have been produced by a Plasma parent. He breeds so many snakes that he was not sure what breeding produced this snake. All we wanted was a male lavender and we did not inquire about hets when we ordered the snake. I think it's pretty clear that there is Masque involved and it's very possible that it may be het for plasma also.

Well there you go
Steve did both with your sale. You wanted a Lavender and he sold you a Lavender but didn't mention the Hets initially. As a pet snake and not a future breeder the hets are not important (even though a dominant gene like Masque would be obvious). A breeder like Steve Roylance doesn't need validation for sure
Definitely post progression pics !!

Have you named him? If not how about Stanley from the movie The Mask

 

[Dragonling]

if it is "super" masque that would mean both parents are masque... at least both min. het. for masque or?

I am asking because i want to know if anyone did some investigation if there is a visual difference between het. masque and hom. masque (super)?
Is there something proved that the ones with an "extrem" splitbelly and less headpattern are truly the superform of masque?

Many thanks in advance guys.

Yes, both parents would have to have at least one copy of masque, and it's possible one parent (the plasma perhaps!) could have been a super too.

There is a fair amount of variation in masque, but every proven super masque I've ever seen has had that extreme erosion on the head, leaving almost nothing but two tiny "eyebrows". You can see that on my cayenne fire, who is from a RF fire x RF bloodred het amel pairing. Based on the offspring, it appears at least one of the parents was only het masque.

Here is a photo of his clutch. Comparing the markings I can see, I believe Tango is the little derp sticking his nose out on the right. The fire to the right of center seems to have very little masque expression (and possibly the little fire hiding to his left as well), but is probably still het masque. The bloodred whose head pattern we can see may also only be het masque, but they would both require outcross trials to prove for sure, thanks to diffusion wiping out any belly checkers that might have remained.

 

[Nanci]

Hi everyone! I was was curious about this guy's morph. I bought him as a lavender, but it looks like he might have something else as well. He's got a nearly clear belly, so I'm thinking probably a masque. The only belly checkers are near his sides. Any other ideas? Thanks!

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The head markings on your snake- the width of the band between the eyes- is so classically Masque it should be used as an example for the one million people on Facebook who post their normal snake and say "I think it's Masque." No, it isn't, here's what Masque looks like. I didn't even need to see the belly.

In the ventral photo, you can see that not only does he not have belly checks (the markings along the edge are just extensions of the side markings) but the centers of his belly scales are also "clear," meaning see-through, not absence of checks. I'd bet money he's homo bloodred/diffused.

He is going to change color SO MUCH!!!

 

[MINGA]

If the belly is like the pic below than it is a masque.

Yours look like an extreme Masque to me....do you have a pic of the belly?

Maybe it is also Bloodred but not that diffused.

That is why i asked for a belly pic ;-)) i also see some transparency in the middle of the belly. That is a 100 % marker for Diffused/Bloodred.

 

[MINGA]

@ Dragonling

first of all many thanks for your pics and the information.

My interest depending on masque started because of the outcome of my breeding this year. I know that one clutch means nothing but maybe there are people out there made the same experience like me?

I pared an anerystriped het. blood,hypo ph amel (piedline) with a anerymasque het. blood,hypo (piedline)
Her father was a Bloodred het. anery and the mother was a ghost. She has a lets say "standard" splitbelly with a normal amount of checkers. So no extreme splitbelly. That was the first hint that she is a het. masque not hom.
In her first pairing last year i got 14 fertile eggs from her. 2 hatchlings showed no splitbelly (1female/1 male). So that was the final hint that both parents musst be het. for masque.
The final outcome was like this:

1.1 anery (no splitbelly)
4.1 anery het. masque? (slighty changed headpattern, "standard" splitbelly with normal amount of checkers, no "kind of hypo" effect and look more like normal anerys)
2.1 anery hom. masque? (less headpattern, extreme splitbelly, less amount of checkers, lighter than the others "kind of hypo" straight after hatching)
2.0 aneryblood (good diffusion no pied) het. masque?
2.0 aneryblood (white sided and low pied) hom. masque?

Most intersting thing what i saw is that the ones with the extreme splitbelly where much "brighter" more like dark ghosts. The ones with a standard splitbelly which look more like the anerys. After 4 sheds the ones with extreme splitbelly are getting more and more brighter and developing a lot of yellow. The ones with standard splitbelly are still staying dark. Further they develop far less yellow.

I will try to explain it more with some pics.

1st pic anery belly after hatching

2nd pic anery het. masque? belly after hatching

3rd pic anery hom. masque? belly after hatching

4th pic aneryblood whitesided belly after hatching

5th pic clutch of 2.0 anerybloods, 1.0 het masque?, 1.0 hom. masque? after first shed (In this pic you can see the "hypo effect")

6 th pic clutch of 1.1 anery hom. masque? and 1.0 anery het. masque? after second shed. (also here you see the big difference in brightness)

8 th pic anery hom. masque? 2nd shed

9th anery hom. masque? 4th shed

last one. anery hom masque ventral 4th shed


If what i think is true than only the hom. masque has a hypo effect on the animals and het. masque do not. Does not matter what kind of sex male or female... hom. masque are more brighter then het. masque animals because of a lack of melanin in the pattern. That is also the reason why they can show more yellow.
Of course it is only a hypothesis out of one clutch....
Anyway it would be intersting to know what you guy think about this.

 

[MINGA]

And the rest of the pics.

sorry i missed number 7 haha it is anery het. masque 2nd shed.

 

[Dragonling]

In the ventral photo, you can see that not only does he not have belly checks (the markings along the edge are just extensions of the side markings) but the centers of his belly scales are also "clear," meaning see-through, not absence of checks. I'd bet money he's homo bloodred/diffused.

He is going to change color SO MUCH!!!

This is a good point, I didn't even notice the clear bits. Could just be poor side diffusion for now (and frankly I'd expect more just from homo masque). Maybe they canceled each other out... :roflmao:

 

[OregonSnake]

I bought him to pair with a sunkissed to make orchids later down the road. I guess I can look forward to blood orchids now!

 

[Nanci]

This is a good point, I didn't even notice the clear bits. Could just be poor side diffusion for now (and frankly I'd expect more just from homo masque). Maybe they canceled each other out... :roflmao:

I think there is a gene, pied side, I guess, that affects how much side diffusion there is, even in snakes that don't have the white. I see a lot of definite homo bloodreds that have "poor" diffusion, which in reality, I believe, is just a lack of whatever gene it is that clears the sides like that- which is most often associated with bloodred, and always with pied.