Just a question

[Scrappyeddie77]

I know that you don’t have to give a snake any vitamins but has anyone ever tried? I was thinking people take vitamins and we also need to give them to lizards. So why wouldn’t you give some to a snake. And if you did would that snake grow faster or bigger or would it be healthier? Any thoughts.


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[Scrappyeddie77]

And by the way you all can trash talk this I don’t have feelings lol


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[Karl_Mcknight]

I have a Calcium and Mineral Supplement Made specifically for reptiles, that I give every 4th feeding. Basically that figures out to once every month and a half or so. It's a powder, you just sprinkle a bit on the mouse.

I can't say if it makes the snake grow bigger or faster or anything like that. But it certainly does not hurt the snake either.

This was recommended to me many many years ago, and it's just something I continue to do to this day. I would say most people do not give supplements to their snakes, and their snakes seem to do fine too.

I don't at this time actually use any vitamins. But to be honest, I have not found any for snakes.

 

[Scrappyeddie77]

I was just wondering about this. I have calcium and a reptivite powder for my little girls bearded dragon. I was thinking about maybe doing this with two hatchlings. One with and one without to see if there is any difference in growth.


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[Twolunger]

I've been using Nature Zone products for many years. I got a gift set of essential vitamins, essential probiotics, and calcium for Christmas one year. They are in 3 oz containers, but last a long time. I mix them together and dust the mice with them lightly on every third feeding. I can't say whether the vitamins have an effect on growth, but I do use them more frequently at breeding time. I saw the essential vitamins on the WalMart website, which surprised me. Some of my friends never give supplements, and their snakes seem to thrive anyway, but I want my snakes in top condition, so I use the products.

 

[MysticExotics]

I have calcium and reptile vitamin powder. I only use them for females recovering from laying eggs, if they seem to need an extra boost.

Personally, I think a varied diet (including quail, chicks, etc) is better, in general than adding vitamin supplements for them.

 

[crackerhead]

Given a balanced diet, proper living conditions and the absence of any underlying illness or genetic defects, no creature needs to supplement vitamin and mineral intake. This includes humans. The vitamin and mineral supplements we take usually do nothing more than make expensive urine.
That said, we commonly give Calcium with or without D3 to diurnal reptiles and amphibians because we usually keep them in the absence of UVB producing sunlight that they would have access to in their natural environment. Vitamin products designed specifically for reptiles are used because we don't feed a varied diet. Most captive insectivores are fed a single prey item like crickets or meal worms. Adding insult, these food items are rarely gut loaded with anything of substance leading to lousy nutritional values. Tally this up and we need to supplement their diets with additional vitamins and minerals. Keep in mind that these same necessary additives can have terrible effects when over prescribed. Care must be taken when doling out the supplements.
Corn snakes are obligate carnivores. Feeding whole prey items like mice, rats, chickens, quail, lizards etc., give them everything they need, as long as the food items are of quality. If we were to feed say, only chicken breast fillets then the animal would probably suffer health issues over time because they aren't getting the nutrients found in the bones, skin, gut (and contents) and organ meat. We are lucky as snake keepers that mice and rats are so easy to get and store. They make such a complete meal for our pets with no additional supplements needed.

Terri

 

[daddio207]

Given a balanced diet, proper living conditions and the absence of any underlying illness or genetic defects, no creature needs to supplement vitamin and mineral intake. This includes humans. The vitamin and mineral supplements we take usually do nothing more than make expensive urine.
That said, we commonly give Calcium with or without D3 to diurnal reptiles and amphibians because we usually keep them in the absence of UVB producing sunlight that they would have access to in their natural environment. Vitamin products designed specifically for reptiles are used because we don't feed a varied diet. Most captive insectivores are fed a single prey item like crickets or meal worms. Adding insult, these food items are rarely gut loaded with anything of substance leading to lousy nutritional values. Tally this up and we need to supplement their diets with additional vitamins and minerals. Keep in mind that these same necessary additives can have terrible effects when over prescribed. Care must be taken when doling out the supplements.
Corn snakes are obligate carnivores. Feeding whole prey items like mice, rats, chickens, quail, lizards etc., give them everything they need, as long as the food items are of quality. If we were to feed say, only chicken breast fillets then the animal would probably suffer health issues over time because they aren't getting the nutrients found in the bones, skin, gut (and contents) and organ meat. We are lucky as snake keepers that mice and rats are so easy to get and store. They make such a complete meal for our pets with no additional supplements needed.

Terri

:iagree:
Well put!
I couldn't agree more.

Also, it is so nice to read someone's input in perfect grammar and spelling.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

I'm not going to assume everyone thinks that the mice we buy in bulk frozen are of "Optimum Quality and Nutritional Value." LOL.... I certainly don't.

I'm not a gambling man, but if I was, I'd be willing to bet they range way over on the "Poor" side of the scale.

It's a known fact That Calcium in particular, and other nutrients are affected by many other influences. Older people lose Calcium, it actually leeches from our bodies as we get older, regardless of how "Healthy you think you are." Smoking and Drinking diminish Calcium levels. Calcium is directly linked to Vitamin D, and the 2 must be in proper balance. Vitamin D can only be obtained if you spend time in the sun or take a pill or a shot. The fact that the Mice are dead and frozen for who knows how long, also affect the nutritional value.

While it's true Vitamins and Nutrient Supplements would not be necessary if our snakes are fed properly, but who can be sure the stuff they are feeding their snakes is of Nutritional value.

You certainly can't expect Mice raised in a Lab or a "Mouse Mill" to be of same nutritional value of a wild mouse a snake might encounter on its own.

We have no idea who raises the mice or the conditions they are raised in. We have no idea how they are fed. If it's an adult mouse, you have no idea how old it is. You have no idea how long it's been stuck in a deep freeze (3 weeks? 6 months? 2 years? Longer?)

Unless you are catching your own wild mice, your own quail, your own lizards and so forth, your snake (and mine) are probably not getting the proper nutrition.

I know some of you do catch your own food items. Good for you. I don't myself, so I supplement, as stated before every 4th feeding. I have always done this going back 42 years, even in the days when Frozen mice were not available and all I could do was go to a pet shop, but a White Rat, take it home, whap its head against a table to stun it and toss it to my boas. It was suggested to me way back then to supplement because you can't expect a caged Rat in a Pet shop to be of optimum quality.

I would imagine these bulk Mice producers are no different than the Bulk "Dog Producers" (puppy mills) and the main interest is sales and obtaining your money, and not necessarily whether your snake is healthy or not.

 

[Dragonling]

Bulk producers feed quality lab blocks from Purina and Mazuri which are designed to keep rodents in optimum health, a necessity for proper research. They're generally very inexpensive and easy to buy and feed in large quantities.

 

[bushsnake]

Seeing the difference in a live vs. frozen diet i feel like something is lost in the freezing process. Adding vitamins is something im thinking about start doing.

 

[Twolunger]

Give them a try. Vitamins are relatively inexpensive, and used sparingly, will have no adverse effects. One 3 ounce bottle will last a long time.

 

[daddio207]

Anthropomorphism is a continual issue in pet care. It was the #1 problem I had when trying to explain proper care of animals sold in my pet store. So many customers would apply what they thought was common sense decisions based their own experiences in life to their animals. We also see reptile owners applying what is good for a lizard to a snake.
When it comes to the topic at hand I can tell you that myself and many of the keepers and breeders I've known with decades of experience feeding 10's of thousands of snakes that we know supplementation of vitamins and minerals is unnecessary. It can even be harmful to the snake. To give vitamins and minerals to a snake for something that we have no idea it is deficient in seems a bit extreme.
Just as we learned through decades of experience that supplementation is necessary with certain lizards. We also know that it is totally unnecessary with corn snakes.

 

[Twolunger]

Other than overdosing with vitamin A, give me some proof that vitamins or minerals when used sparingly are harmful to snakes. Where are you getting this assertion? I would be glad to read any article that states vitamins or minerals when used judiciously are harmful to snakes. I've raised snakes and reptiles for decades but am always willing to learn something new. Don't cite friends who raised thousands of snakes as experts, I want to read scientific evidence to support your assertion.

 

[Twolunger]

Brian at BHB ( snake bytes tv ) conducted a feeding experiment with 4 groups of corn snakes. You can check out the results on YouTube. I'll give you the episodes at the end of this post if you want to watch them. I don't like the antics of his employees, as they tend to diminish the importance of the topic, but some may find them funny.

The corns were set up in 4 different groups, 5 in each group, with all about the same weight in grams ( 15 grams ). All corns fed using the Munson feeding plan which Brian outlined.

1. Group 1 fed one pinkie every 5 or 6 days.
2. Group 2 fed slightly smaller pinkies twice per week.
3. Group 3 fed one pinkie dusted with vitamins once every 5 or 6 days.
4. Group 4 fed one mouse 20% larger than the others once every 5 or 6 days.

The results were dramatic, as you can see if you watch the videos.

Group 4 had huge gains in size and weight. Although Brian said he preferred raising the corns at a slower rate.
Group 3 with vitamins was next in growth rate. I guess that answers the question of whether vitamin supplementation is worthwhile. Brian admitted that he was surprised by the results, as he didn't usually recommend vitamins. This group gained 10-15% more than groups 1 and 2.
Group 1 actually grew slightly larger than group 2, even though eating just one pinkie of the appropriate size.
Group 2 came in last, even though fed twice per week.

Go to YouTube and search for the snake bytes tv episode "How do I feed my snake."
The results are in an episode titled " satan snake vs Chewy." You may also search BHB feeding experiment.

 

[Karl_Mcknight]

Exactly! Not all vitamins are bad in excess.

And I've been keeping snakes 42 years myself and have been doing this with no detrimental effects. I'll admit, I didn't "Used to Have a Pet Shop" but I was recommended to do this by someone who did. And is my 42 years of keeping healthy happy snakes lesser than some pompous a-hole just because he "used to have a pet shop?"

Nobody can convince me that an indoor raised mouse fed on pellets in a cage is of equal nutritional value of a wild mouse eating a variety of things and exposed to natural conditions and sunlight.

 

[daddio207]

Twolunger : Just because a post follows yours doesn't mean it is an attack on it. I did NOT tell the OP to not follow your advice or TO follow mine. This is how forums work. Are we not allowed to give our experiences, thoughts and feelings even if some of it contradicts others. I actually had the BHB study in the back of my mind when I wrote my post. It doesn't answer the long term effects on a snake taking vitamins. What has been proven by 100's of keepers and breeders of 10's of 1000's of snakes over decades is that supplementing is totally unnecessary. As you and Karl keep pointing out your 40+ years of experience I also point to my 40+ years of reptile experience in posts. A person that has raised thousands of snakes is not an expert? If those years don't make us experts then they at least make us highly experienced albeit at times with different outcomes.

Karl: Karl, the self proclaimed "snowflake remover'' who melted like the snowflakes he's "gunning" for to name calling. You tout your 42 years of experience but I'm a "pompous a-hole" for owning a pet store? LOL !
Love the avatar and title so I thought I would post it here before you change it again.


Snowflake Remover

 

[Shiari]

First, some questions on his test:

Did he show starting weights for each individual baby, and then final weights? Because a hatchling that starts at 5 grams isn't going to gain as much weight as a hatchling starting at 8 or 9 grams.
Was each group a single clutch or a mixed bag of clutches? If a single clutch each group, that doesn't rule out genetic tendencies towards faster growth.

Unnecessary vitamin supplementation can be detrimental to health; you can overdose on vitamins and minerals and considering the 'safe' doses are typically measuring in IUs per *kilogram* dosing a hatchling appropriately is going to be extremely difficult and you'll already be giving it more than it actually needs as it's getting that from its food already. Too much vitamin A, for example, and the snake basically continually sheds over and over, back to back, using up vital resources. Too much calcium and they can build up calcium deposits in the skin that cause tissue irritation and even ulcerate- this is a chronic condition from long-term excess calcium called calcinosis cutis.

There is also medical concerns with feeding too large and too frequent prey items; it might actually be decreasing our snakes' lifespans.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/219/13/1969

Also anecdata from an exotics vet where one of their clients had seen a significant decrease in lifespan for their snakes:

It is well known that after snakes eat their metabolisms are kicked into high gear to help digest the meal. Studies in Burmese pythons show that their hearts actually grow larger in size after a meal to accommodate the increase need for oxygenation of the tissues and to supply more blood to the GI tract. I never really paid much attention to this as a clinician until I had a client who breeds several species of python tell me that his snakes just aren’t living as long as they did when he first got into the business. After spending several days pouring over all of his data (he keeps meticulous records on each snake) and running diagnostics on a few snakes and necropsies on those that had died, I only really found one main issue- he was feeding larger prey items more often starting about a decade ago. I looked into the literature and spoke with some other herp vets and found that animals that are fed more often age faster than those that eat less.

Who cares right? The difference seems only to be a few years in longevity. For breeders whose main goal is producing young to sell, it probably is insignificant. But for people that own snakes just for their own enjoyment or those in zoological institutions those extra years may really matter, especially for endangered species. I see a lot more obesity in reptiles than I used to due to over feeding so not only are we making reptiles fat which causes health problems, we are shortening their lives just be speeding up their metabolisms.

Below are a few of the articles if you would like to read them and form your own conclusion.

Eating increases oxidative damage in a reptile.
J Exp Biol. July 2016;219(Pt 13):1969-73.
Michael W Butler 1, Thomas J Lutz 2, H Bobby Fokidis 3, Zachary R Stahlschmidt 4

Effects of meal size on postprandial responses in juvenile Burmese pythons (Python molurus)
Am J Physiol. March 1997;272(3 Pt 2):R902-12.
S M Secor 1, J Diamond

The effects of fasting duration on the metabolic response to feeding in Python molurus: an evaluation of the energetic costs associated with gastrointestinal growth and upregulation
Physiol Biochem Zool. 2002 Jul-Aug;75(4):360-8.
Johannes Overgaard 1, Johnnie B Andersen, Tobias Wang

Physiology: postprandial cardiac hypertrophy in pythons
Nature. March 2005;434(7029):37-8.
Johnnie B Andersen 1, Bryan C Rourke, Vincent J Caiozzo, Albert F Bennett, James W Hicks

Respiratory consequences of feeding in the snake Python molorus
Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol. November 1999;124(3):359-65.
J Overgaard 1, M Busk, J W Hicks, F B Jensen, T Wang

And a thing of note with obesity; you only see external signs of obesity once the body cavity has reach max fat storage capacity. A snake that visually appears to be in good body condition could still be obese.

 

[bushsnake]

Twolunger- did brian mention what supplements he used. Im still interested in using them. Nothing said here has convinced me otherwise. Im always better off listening to myself

 

[Shiari]

Even knowing that over supplementing vitamins and minerals can cause health deficits and that you don't know the correct doses for this species won't deter you? (says the vet tech who won't do this to her snakes)

Is your only interest truly in growing them as fast as possible, or in taking proper care of them?