Kastanie / Chestnut... what are they?

[Serpwidgets]

If someone (*cough* Menhir *cough*) could post some info about these it would be greatly appreciated.

1- Is it acting like a mendelian recessive? (proven through breeding trials I assume)

2- What's the phenotype? (Seems basically hypoerythristic...?)

3- Has it been proven non-allelic against any/all of the other erythrin-affecting genes? (anery/charcoal/caramel/lavender/Z)

4- What all genes has it been combined with? (Obviously amel, anything else?)

 

[JimGERcream]

http://www.kornnatter-hobbyzucht.de

---> Tierbestand

 

[Joejr14]

http://www.kornnatter-hobbyzucht.de

---> Tierbestand

Ah yeah, I totally understood that website!

 

[Serpwidgets]

I meant in English.

Here's the babelfish translation of that:

On this couple over a Diskusion in the queue pit became attentive. The point at issue was whether these animals would be really Ghosttiere. (on the side from the previous owner they were as Ghosttier angepriesen) I got the following information after establishment of contact with the operator of the side:

He had bought the animals in England on a small stock exchange as Ghost. The appearance of the animals with the purchase is to have been Ghost/Anerythristic. With each Haeutung the animals umgefaerbt themselves more toward brown/red, and/or the black in many places overlays. Unfortunately it came also to a mating come prematurely from the previous owner remained unidentified and thus also the clutch of eggs in the Terrarium is dried.

I recognized Paralelen to the \\\\\\\"Kastanientieren \\\\\\\", which were with me in the plant (see also description animal existence Kastanie). The basic colours of the animals are very similar. I was not safe me whether the data were correct concerning the purchase in England. Also after repeated inquiring it was insured to me that the animals from England were, and not as of me assumes from the breed of the breeder, who had pulled Mandarin and \\\\\\\"Kastanietiere tight \\\\\\\".

Result is that I cannot arrange the animals really somewhere. Perhaps white I more if it Nachzuchten couples gives (probably already 2006 which will give because the female over 300 g is heavy already)

If someone has information, which could help me further, a Mail writes me.

Here a photo of the Nachzuchten of 2006.

 

[Ssthisto]

Don't you just love automatic translations?

Sounds like they were bought and originally priced as Ghosts, but picked up more red and brown with each shed. They reminded the writer of Chestnut, thus the name. It wasn't completely certain that the origin of the animals (originally described as being from England) were correct - but it has since been ascertained that the animals definitely did come from the UK. Once they've been test bred, more information will be available - they wanted to check the offspring from 2006.

 

[Serpwidgets]

The one mentioned in that link appears to be a different line from something else that is being described on another German forum. I tried reading through that with the translator, but that translation was about the same quality. I figure Menhir or someone else could help clear up that situation with a good summary in English for those of us on this side of the pond.

Given the pictures on that other thread, it looks like it might be a hypoerythristic gene and it may have been proven out already. :shrugs:

 

[goerk]

Hi
I`m telling the owner that a discussion is running in here and he should explain you the thing.

PS
in Menhirs Forum is an actuall discission :
http://www.farbvarianten.de/forum.php?req=thread&id=616

Greetings from Goerk

 

[mrmeissner]

I write a longer text to explain this trait, please give me some time. I think Menhir will amend my text.

By the way, there is a litte text in english in the kornnatterlexikon:

Mandarin

There ist another Information origin on my webpage, but only in german:

Mandrain

Kastanie

br,

Marcel Rene

 

[mrmeissner]

Picture of Kastanie "Chestnut" Hatchling:

Picture of Kastanie adulti :

Pictuer of "amelanistic Kastanie" names as mandarin (in english Tangerine):

Mandarin after 3 Shred's:

Mandarin as adult:

Some pitures are from Michael and Frank Schaub, they are the eponyms of this trait and have some adultis which had been breed to different other traits.

to be continued....

 

[mrmeissner]

Ok, the fist picures don't work. Here another try:

Picture of Kastanie "Chestnut" Hatchling:

Picture of Kastanie adulti :

Picture of "amelanistic Kastanie" names as mandarin (in english Tangerine):

 

[Menhir]

Okay, I didn't understand that you wanted to know about the Mandarin and Chstnut thing and I am terrible in a hurry with getting ready a paper and my diploma thesis.

So, long story short:
A keeper only owning a pair of normals had morphs in the first clutch. The looked Anery, Amel and Snow. He bred a little bit around with em and sold them as Anery, Amel and BubbleGum Snow, because the animals got nice colors when growing up. Another breeder, Michael Schaub, bought some of these bubblegums at a snow and noticed, that they are not snows in fact, they tend to hatch like snows and develop lots of orange tones. This morph was called Mandarin. After a few breeding trials and telephoning around, also with me, we focussed on the "Anery" that were also in the clutches. These animals also hatch Anery looking and develop lots of orange and brown tones. So, the theorie was born, that Mandarin is just the Amelanistic Version of a new, anerythritic-like Gen.
This summer, test breedings shows, that Chestnut is a new, recessive, anerythristic-like gene whereas Mandarin is the "Chestnut Snow" so the amelanistic kastanie.

There is a lot more to the whole story and also testbreedings were done be the first breeder that hatched these animals, but I dont have enough time to tell the whole story. I think Serp will believe me, when I say, that is testes recessive.

Greetings

 

[mrmeissner]

The parent animals don’t come from the UK, they came from northern germany. A pensioned teacher of biology breed two pure cornsnakes together, which have cornsnake like but strange belly checkers. The result where Anery, Amels and two corns, which seems to be bubblegum snows. One of them, the teacher sold to Michael Schaub as a bubblegum. The other one (named as “Mike”) he crossed back to the origin mother. This pairing produced a clutch of 4 different morphs. classic corns, mandarins (amelanistic kastanie), kastanie and amelanistic (Phenotyp Sunglows).

After some shreds, Michael Schaub and his brother Frank sees the oddly coloration. They first internal named them mandarins (Tangerine). After that, they establish a closer contact to the origin breeder (the teacher). The teacher is an older conservative man, which don’t want to stand in the public. I know, this sound a little bit strange, but I now knew the teacher and I understand standpoint.
The Schaubs search for other animals with similar appearance to the origin kastanie parents on all german reptile-exhibitions. They bought everything which looked similar to the origins. Two of the animals really look like the original ones. Those are the two snakes from the UK. They where breed together this year. The offsprings look similar to the kastanie, but also a little bit different. We had to wait some shredings to say something precisely. But none of the bought animals have been breed to the original mandarin line.

Meantime, the teacher had crossed mandarin X mandarin together and get 100% mandarin hatchlings. They showed me and some other people this mandarins.
Sadly, in germany, if someone thought to have discovered something new, he want to make money quick. Some of the other breeders adopt this name to a hybrid-line, because they see similar coloration and they liked the name mandarin (engl. tangerine). The breeder of the hybrid-line posted his animals named as mandarins very fast in different forums and pages. Also there was a discussion on cornsnakes.com about this fake / wrong mandarins.
Also Menhir combined the name mandarin with hybrid.
So the Schaub brothers where very angry about the other breeder and they consider to use another name. But they discard it quickly, because the name describes the morph very well. When you see both lines side by side, there are definitely look different.
They decided to open the facts about the mandarins to the public and ask me to write something about this trait in germany. But, without test breeding, all is pure speculation.

Menhir, the Schaubs and I had contact to each other. We engaged in the mandarin discussion and talked to the origin breeder. After that, for me, there was no doubt that this could be something different, that mandarin is the amelanistic form of kastanie and that these animals don't be hybrids.
I showed some pictures to Kathy Love when I was visiting her in january. She was also astonished about this coloration and suggested some test breedings to other morphs.

To evidence the autonomy of the kastanie gen, the schaub brothers and the teacher breed mandarins to different morphs. The results confirm our estimations.

1. Kastanie X Butter, Result: 9 normal amelanistic
2. Kastanie het. Mandarin X Mandarin, Result 11 Kastanie / 6 Mandarins
3. Kastanie X Hypomelanistic het. Amelanistic, Result: : 3 Classics / 3 normal Amels
4. Mandarin X Mandarin, Result: 100% Mandarins

Next year, there are some more Mandarins ready to breed. We will test the trait against Lavender, Bloodred and Charcoal. We can’t test this trait against Z, because there are no animals of this morph available in germany yet.

 

[Menhir]

Also Menhir combined the name mandarin with hybrid.

In fact, the name Mandarin was combined with Hybrids also in this board long before Michael Schaubs animals were published. So it wasn't Menhir to combine Mandarin with Hybrid.

Menhir, the Schaubs and I had contact to each other. We engaged in the mandarin discussion and talked to the origin breeder. After that, for me, there was no doubt that this could be something different, that mandarin is the amelanistic form of kastanie and that these animals don't be hybrids.

Sorry, I didn't want to steal anything that you discovered, cause I don't want to adorn myself with borrowed plumes - which is true for both of us. :santa: All I said was:

After a few breeding trials and telephoning around, also with me

I did not say: Menhir had the ultimative idea, that it is an Amelanistic Chestnut. In fact, the first (wrong) information I got from Michael Schaub left only co-dominance as a possibility, with Mandarin being the homozygous and Kastanie the heterozygous phenotype of the new gene.
In fact, I thought it isn't a bad idea to state, that I proved to thing by telephoning with the breeders, cause I may be known as not too dumb in genetic things. Sorry for that.

 

[mike888]

@Menhir

My Post wasn't an answer of yours. I have tipped this text while you post yours. See the time! I've read your post after i send my!

Please, don't misunderstand this posting! In my posting, there are no refenrence to your statement!

 

[mrmeissner]

Sorry, i was logged in on a friends computer. The posting above was from me.

 

[kimbyra]

Hi Folks! I really don't want to interfer with this discussion, but has anyone else noticed that in the first two pictures posted, those noses/heads look a like king/corn crosses. Or maybe its just me....

 

[goerk]

Because of such missunderstandings I`ve written that Michael Schaub should say something to HIS new Creation.
I mean its nice from Marcel because he just wanted to help, but I think the person who the animals belong to, could give the best Informations.

Greets

 

[Menhir]

those noses/heads look a like king/corn crosses.

The hybrid discussion can very well be done, but that is not an explanation for the genetical behaviour of the look. The Chestnut look is reproducable and doesn't act like a product of hybridization.
@Goerk, I spoke to Michael Schaub a few times and he himself says, that he is not THAT genetic guru - I think one main reasons that we spoke that much and that I also got the number of the original breeder to speak about all the testings he had already done. I am quite sure, that the rest of the discussion will analyse the genetical details what to test and what results should be visible and I am not sure if Michael is the right man to clear THAT things up.
Of course, he is the right one to tell how he came to the animals and the original breeder would be the right one to tell how the whole thing started.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Ok, I think there are some pieces missing. In order to be proven recessive, one needs 3 generations:

A- Kastanie corn (Cross to normal and produce)

B- Normal-looking F1 corns

-then-
C- Cross F1 X F1 and produce Kastanie and Normal in the same clutch.
-or-
D- Cross F1 X Kastanie and produce Kastanie and Normal in the same clutch.

If I am reading correctly, the cross was Kastanie X Kastanie and produced all Kastanie. The other cross was Kastanie X non-Kastanie producing all normals.

But these can happen if Kastanie is a selectively-bred normal, or a hybrid, etc, so alone it does not prove Kastanie = recessive.

(The other important part of this outcrossing is to determine which parts of the phenotype are inherited together/separately.)

Anyway, if the above (proof it's recessive) is shown, it would be a good bet that this is a "new" gene which produces a new phenotype. Even if it is an allele to anery/charcoal/lav/etc the phenotype is different enough to consider it separately from the "anerys" we know today.

@Menhir: I am sure you know enough about genetics to know when a trait is proven recessive, so I'll be patient and wait for the longer story when you have time to write.

 

[Menhir]

one needs 3 generations:

Not if you own 2 normal animals.
The original breeder bred two normals together and got these "mandarin" or what he called "bubblegum" animals - together with normals, amels, "anery" (chestnut) - I'm not sure if a Snow was there also, don't remember correctly. Breeding one of these back to the parent lead to more "Bubblegum" always including these Anery (chestnuts), normals, and normal Amels.
If I remember correctly, he also bred an Amelanistic F1 to a Mandarin and got 1/4 Mandarin. The problem is, that I don't remember every single breeding, but I wrote it down while we were talking and after the third breeding he described (he is a biology teacher), I had to agree with him that it acted perfectly mendelian recessive - so I did not write the rest down cause it was clear for me. The testbreedings that should take place are more to be safe for the gene being unrelated to known mutations.

The crosses Marcel wrote about were done by Michael Schaub, the ones I wrote now were done by the original breeder.

That does not fit a selective bred look or the result of hybridization.