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Live or F/T?

f/t

safer for the snake if its food is not fighting for survival
freezing kills most worms, mites and other nasties
frozen/thawed is generally more economical
frozen/thawed is more easily digested
frozen/thawed is more convienent, you don't need to run to the petshop on feeding day, just open your freezer!
 
In the interest of safety, from what I understand you should always try F/T. If that does not work, I believe F/K is the next best option. If your snake will not eat either of those than from what I understand you should try live but try to offer F/T (in subsequent feedings). There are a lot of examples in these forums of snakes who are injured from live prey. While there may not be a super high risk of your snake being injured (depending on the size of the feeder), the risk is always there. Some snakes will refuse F/T, but it is kind of your responsibility to try (I do not have a lot of experience, but my opinion is that live food should only be provided if it is the only option - you really do not want to injure the snake, or put yourself in the position of caring for an injured snake).

The thing to keep in mind is that your snake will require larger feeders as he grows. Pinkies are not really that dangerous, but when you upgrade to larger mice, rats, etc. they will just become more able to defend themselves and therefore hurt your animal.

The final concern is the moral aspect of putting a live feeder into a situation where it will encounter severe stress followed by a very unpleasant death. I am sure everyone has their own opinions, and I may not have felt this way before I became a snake owner myself. Now though I feel more influenced in being overprotective vs. any perceived benefit of using live prey.
 
starsevol said:
f/t

safer for the snake if its food is not fighting for survival
freezing kills most worms, mites and other nasties
frozen/thawed is generally more economical
frozen/thawed is more easily digested
frozen/thawed is more convienent, you don't need to run to the petshop on feeding day, just open your freezer!
Click to expand...

Not sure about that one, but maybe you're right.

But I agree with everything else. F/t is the best IMO, but if for some reason yours doesn't eat f/t or even p/k. Then live can be ok so long as precautions are taken. But I say f/t all the way.
 
From what I've read freezing breaks down the cell walls and that is what contributes to easier digestion. I read it a long time ago, and I'm not even sure where anymore. I could be wrong, and heaven knows THAT'S happened before!
 
starsevol said:
From what I've read freezing breaks down the cell walls and that is what contributes to easier digestion. I read it a long time ago, and I'm not even sure where anymore. I could be wrong, and heaven knows THAT'S happened before!
Click to expand...

Hate to be a know-it-all, but animal cells don't have cell walls, only plasma membranes.

But to the OP, starsevol has given great, concise advice. I personally wouldn't feed live unless it was a last resort.
 
Snake Dave said:
Hate to be a know-it-all, but animal cells don't have cell walls, only plasma membranes.

But to the OP, starsevol has given great, concise advice. I personally wouldn't feed live unless it was a last resort.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I didn't know that!
 
Yup, plants have cell walls, animals don't. ;)

But even then, I'm not sure how that would affect digestion. I have acouple of bps that only eat live, and I see no difference between them and the ones that eat f/t as far as digestion goes. But alas, I think we're missing the forest for the trees here. F/t is the way to go.
 
I almost use exclusively frozen thawed.
I am using live for some of my females that I intend to breed and I'll explain why.

This year I lost one of my favorite snakes. It was her second year breeding. She layed 8 eggs (1 infertile, 7 fertile) but two never moved down the pipe. She laid them within 7 days of prelay shed.

The two that never came down - I had the vet aspirate them, and they still not move down. He then gave her oxytocin, and they moved down, but she died while trying to pass them.

I suspect it was a combination of an unusually large clutch for her size and age (not a corn) and a lack of proper muscle tone.

I have some snakes that refuse f/t and only accept live, and they are stronger. I have three '07 hypo het lav from same clutch, two take f/t and one takes live. The one that takes live is stronger.

There has not been much scientific study done on egg binding in snakes. Initially I thought it might be calcium deficiency since there are a lot of web hits claiming that, but it turns out the only scientific evidence for calcium deficiency and egg binding is with birds, lizards, and turtles. Snakes get more than enough calcium from their prey.

Some of my females will constrict f/t prey if I dangle it. They will continue to get f/t by the dangling method. Some are too smart for that, they will play tug-o-war but not try to constrict. Some refuse to take prey at all if I am holding it (even with tongs). For those last two groups, I have started feeding them live every other feeding, hoping to increase their muscle tone to reduce the odds of egg binding.

I'm only doing it with females I intend to breed the following year, only every other feeding, and and only with females that won't constrict dangled f/t prey. I also am not leaving them unattended with the prey.
 
Thanks to all that has put their opinions...I myself, perfer ive because I have read that live has more of a nutriunal value. We never know how long the mice has been frozon before you purchased it; unless you freeze it yourself. The longer the mice has been in the freezer the less nutriunal value it has. I have tried the prekill way, but I can't do it after doing so 4 x's. I put the mouse in a zip log bag and wacked it on the concrete and that I can't do anymore. If anyone has another way that is not so cruel and gross; please share. Thanks
 
JanuaryLove said:
Thanks to all that has put their opinions...I myself, perfer ive because I have read that live has more of a nutriunal value. We never know how long the mice has been frozon before you purchased it; unless you freeze it yourself. The longer the mice has been in the freezer the less nutriunal value it has. I have tried the prekill way, but I can't do it after doing so 4 x's. I put the mouse in a zip log bag and wacked it on the concrete and that I can't do anymore. If anyone has another way that is not so cruel and gross; please share. Thanks
Click to expand...

Yeah, the method (head trauma) you used to use isn't considered humane, so well done for stopping.

You can build a CO2 (sorry for the lack of subscript) euthanisation chamber. They're pretty cheap, and you can either use a CO2 bottle with a pressure nozzle, or packets of dry ice. Both are used in a sealed chamber, and death is pretty quick (depending on which method you use), in about 2 seconds I believe.

Another method is cervical dislocation. However, this can easily go wrong and cause immense pain to the animal.

Check out this link:

http://www.anapsid.org/co2.html
 
Personally, I use cervical dislocation, which is easy and quick. You hold the mouse by the tail, let it walk forward on a surface it can grip, then hold a thin rod (I use a screwdriver) firmly against the back of its neck. Give a sharp pull on the tail and the neck is broken straight away.
 
I looked at a university page (forget which) instruction their lab techs how to do it.

They would use a CO2 chamber followed by cervical dislocation to make sure they were dead.
I'm not sure how often a mouse survives the CO2 chamber, but if one did, freezing to death is cruel, so that's probably why they do the second method in addition to CO2.
 
I'm trying to figure out why you asked if you weren't going to change your mind with what you were doing anyway...or were you just finding out how (un)popular it was?
 
Nanci said:
Oh BS. And what about the potential parasite load you are passing on to your snake?
Click to expand...

Listen...I am not sure if you are BSing me or just Bsing the fact. It is just what I read and I am still learning. If you have some input please list them that way I have more of an idea instead of just saying BS. Sorry, but BSing don't help. I have though about parasites...that is why this thread was put here. Thanks
 
I've seen the nutritional argument as well.
I don't buy it - as there are many many many snakes that grow quickly and are quite healthy on a diet of nothing but frozen thawed their entire lives.

There may be less nutrition in a f/t mouse but there probably is more than enough for the snake.

The one thing I do believe is that snakes that eat live are more likely to have good muscle tone.
You can also increase muscle tone by increasing the enclosure size and giving them stimulus to climb around on (branches, rocks, etc.) and handling them.
 
FunkyRes said:
The one thing I do believe is that snakes that eat live are more likely to have good muscle tone.
Click to expand...

You can easily reproduce that effect. Dangling the prey item and waving it around can easily stimulate a strike and constrict response, which will use practically the same amount of energy as if it were live prey (you can play tug-of-war to help, LOL).
 
Frozen...always. No risk of injury or death to the snake...and I've seen some horrible injuries...easier to store, never have to go out and buy one or however many you need each week. I've never had a snake refuse f/t...even my wildcaught imports. As far as exercise, my snakes all grab and actively constrict off the tongs. Some of them quite violently. They are getting just as much exercise as any domestic snake going after a live mouse in a small space. Toning by feeding live is B.S. Mine are just as toned feeding on f/t. If you want to tone by going after live, you'd have to let the snake loose in the wild to go search out the mouse, hunt it and then kill it. The few seconds the snake sits in the box watching a live mouse, crawling 6" and taking the mouse is hardly exercise at all. Constriction occurs with mine even when the mouse is not alive.
 
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