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look at this thread, and bring your opinions with you!

Kilala

lemme go! I'm sleeping!
Please give me your opinions on this issue:

Feeding non-rodent prey to a snake (such as a cat) providing the prey was prekilled humanely beforehand

I just got my ear chewed off for saying that I thought the above was perfectly acceptable. I mean, everything's got to eat, right? Why is feeding off a rodent different than feeding off a feline? It's bugging me...
 
Rodents are bred specifically for food for reptiles, kinda like cows are bred specifically for meat and milk.
It wouldn't be acceptable to kill a companion animal for food for a reptile. Call it a double standard if you'd like. I doubt you'll get any support here.
Now, let's take it a step further.
When I was going to college, a student in one of my classes brought a BIG burmese to class one day.
OK, cool, whatever.
I got to know him, and checked out his collection, it was pretty cool.
Well, I didn't think any more of it.
Later, I found out he got rid of his burmese. He loved it so much I asked him why he gave it up.
Well, it turns out he was feeding it kittens. Yes, kittens. Live, hit over the head and stunned. (Otherwise they would claw the snake.)
They were 'free to a good home' kittens. He would go there with his young daughter and act like she was the one getting a pet kitten, when in fact they were food for his pet snake.
Eventually, he said it was too much for him. He didn't want his daughter remembering this, so he tried switching to rats.
Turns out he couldn't get the snake to eat rats anymore, she got acclimated to kittens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He tried feeding it rats for months, and it just didn't work. ( I didn't know anything about snakes at the time.)
He sold it to a pet shop.
They called him a month later, and asked if there was anything special he did to get the snake to eat. He couldn't tell the pet store he fed the snake cats, so he nonchalantly said' Nope, she ate fine for me.'. (Dooming his snake to starvation.)
I can imagine the poor snake, stuck in a pet shop with cats in cages nearby, and she could smell food (CATS) , but couldn't get it.
Under those conditions it would be impossible to break the food association, and I'd assume the snake simply died of starvation.
It also broke my friends' heart, as his young daughter would always go 'can we keep this one daddy, pleeeeeeeeease' (About the kittens.)
It was really too bad, as she was a sweet snake, and the owner started with the best of intentions, but simply hadn't thought it all the way through.
There's just no good way out of that situation.
There's free cats to a good home in every paper, and it's really too bad people don't neuter their cats. They euthanize cats every day. We just can't feed them to snakes. It won't ever be a good idea, no matter how good it sounds at first. It sounds like you're solving 2 problems, but you're really just making another.
 
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I guess because a cat is more humanly accepted in many people's homes and hearts as a loving pet..when one thinks of a cat they think of kittens and playing with balls and yarn..And having a companion to pet and talk to and come home to..

Then when one thinks of mice most people are not a fan of rodents (not saying they do not make good pets and not saying some people don't love them as pets just as much as one would love their pet cat) and usually has no problem thinking of it as food for a snake or something to just be trapped and killed..I guess humanity has just a bigger love for cats, dogs, etc...and mice are just seen differently (again not saying this is true for everyone..)
 
It's really too bad, because rats make just as good a pet as cats do, in my opinion.
We just happen to do research on them.
I keep rats as breeders, and I really enjoy hanging out with them.
I also respect them like any other animal.
I think it's wrong to cause suffering and what my friend did was wrong. I couldn't intervene, as it had already happened. I heard about it later.
 
With so many different commercial food producers, there is no need at all to feed anything but commercially produced prey. I wouldn't actively seek out kittens to feed to my burms, but if they were starving, I would do what it took. Its incredibly safe to assume that many people will become incredibly offended by this subject, since cats are accepted as loving pets, as was stated earlier. To be honest, if I wasn't able to find a food source, I would have no qualms. Then again, I have also been sneered at for feeding my big snakes rabbits. And I've been further sneered at for eating lamb... no skin off my back. In the situation stated above, I assume he collected kittens because of financial needs. My thoughts about that is he shouldn't own a large constrictor if he couldn't afford to feed it. In times of desperation, I'll go hungry before I let my animals. Unfortunately, not everyone is like that.

A long time ago, I let my 14 ft burm Baby out in the back yard for some sun. I went inside to answer the phone, and a few seconds later, I heard a horrendous sound coming from the backyard. Seems that a cat had wandered into my backyard, and decided to investigate Baby. I felt really bad because I didn't know who this cat belonged to. After posting fliers and talking to neighbors, it was safe to assume that the cat was a stray. I cursed that cat for the claw marks it left on my snake though. I guess I got lucky in that situation, and Baby was never allowed out unsupervised ever again.
 
I feel pretty strongly that someone who is able take a little kitten and knock it out with their bare hands and then feed it to a snake just has something intrinsically wrong with them. I am a huge cat person and the thought of feeding kittens to a snake just plain flat out disgusts me. It is a gut reaction and all the logic in the world of it being an unwanted stray, there's too many cats, etc still doesnt take away the sickened reaction I have every time I read about something like this. Is it a double standard because I can feed rodents and have no qualms? Maybe. But that guy adopting kittens under fake pretenses, and then "stunning" them for his snake, well that is the kind of snake owner that ends up giving the rest of the more responsible larger snake owners a bad name and causing problems for the reputation of all snake owners in general. If I personally knew of someone who did this I would report them to an animal cruelty agency immediately and hope they are never allowed to own snakes again.
 
I know there are better solutions than cats.
Someone else I knew fed a small road-killed deer minus head and legs to a BIG! adult female burm, an albino one at that. I realize that deer was prolly fresh killed, but I imagine they carry parasites, too.
I keep hearing about some pretty strange stuff being fed to the big snakes.
I've never bad a big snake so I can't say what I would do if my snake were starving and I was broke. I doubt I would feed it kittens, but it makes some kind of sense at first.
 
Not everyone may agree with me, I posted my first instinctive from the gut reaction, but really if you are not able to afford food for an animal you should not own one.
It's a good thing I do not live in one of those countries where it's OK to eat cats and dogs...
 
This, my friend, is why you shouldn't advocate kittens as food for snakes.
Even if it makes sense at first, you'll eventually get in trouble when someone finds out. And you'll never, ever be able to keep it a secret.
Legal issues aside, rats are cheap, and easy to breed.
It's too bad, because I like rats, and don't particularly like cats.
It takes all kinds.
I don't have a big snake, and if I did, I wouldn't feed it kittens. I just don't like having cats around.
 
Yeah, if you are not a cat person just remove "cats" and substitute an animal you do love. Dogs? Horses? Whatever makes you sick to think of being used as snake or people food, there is probably somebody out there who would have no qualms to club it on the head and feed off or eat it themselves. But when it comes to snakes there are people that commercially produce mice, rats, rabbits, pigs, fowl to feed them and it's a huge copout to go get cats and pretend you will give them a loving home when what you really have in mind for them is a horrible death. It's lying, false pretenses and there are just to many crazy old cat ladies like me out there that might find out lol. I'm sure there are mouse lovers that think of corn snake owners as sadistic evil people too. Like I already said, just my gut feeling from a cat lover. I have had too many as pets to see them in any other light.
 
I was at a different forum where people were posting pics of their beloved pets.
One gentleman posted a pic of an amazing animal. An adult alligator snapping turtle. At least 75 lbs, he held it up very carefully, and it obliged the photographer by holding it's mouth open in the 'classic' snapper style.
Everyone commented on how cool that pic was, and how much dedication you have to have to keep an animal like that as a pet.
Then, as you can imagine, someone else trolled in "I love snappers, they taste just like chicken".
Now, having aquatic turtles as pets all my life, I can certainly see how perspective colors one's experiences.
There's just too many problems with feeding cats to snakes.
I wouldn't recommend it, this will be my last post on this subject.
Have a good day.
 
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Not everyone may agree with me, I posted my first instinctive from the gut reaction, but really if you are not able to afford food for an animal you should not own one.
It's a good thing I do not live in one of those countries where it's OK to eat cats and dogs...

Well Jen, it's all a matter of culture really. Ours is a culture based on many hypocrisies, some downright funny. I'm sure a lot of Hindus feel the same way about the American culture of killing and eating cows. In fact, they also regard rats as a sacred animal as well where we regard them as pests and vectors for disease. When you really look at the bigger picture, our American culture is really only a few hundred years old whereas most of the worlds other cultures have been around for thousands of years that we often consider backwards and unorthodox.

But what it amounts to is basic programming. We are programmed to think that dogs and cats are human companions when in reality, they are merely highly inbred domesticated animals that were produced only for our own use. It's not like the animal really has a choice or say in the matter not unlike any other animal we take in as a pet.

So, where does that fit in with the feeding of a dog or a cat to something such as a snake? Well, it all depends on your openness of mind really. Personally, I do not see anything logically wrong with this. What I find amusing is the fact that people who keep reptiles that have such an adverse emotional response in the matter. After all, we consistently sacrifice animals to be fed to our reptiles, simple as that really. If someone could prove to me that a mouse or a rat has any less feeling of pain or fear and the lack of wanting to survive when compared to a dog or a cat, then maybe I might want to reconsider my position on this. But the fact is, no animal regardless of species or even intellectual level, wants to become a prey item for another animal, none! In fact, I think it's rather sad when we can subjugate ourselves to condone the killing of one species of animal while condemning the killing of another just because of some programmed emotional attachment we might have.

What I think gives a black eye to the reptile industry is not the fact that these types of incidents happen, but the exact reasons why they happen. In other words, there's no denying that there's a significant group of people that merely get a snake or a lizard (such as a nile monitor) just so they can feed it something live to watch that animal suffer and die. That's what sickens me! It's these people that hurt our industry the most, their lack of respect and empathy for any and all life. These are the same people that once they become bored with their monster pet, then lose interest for it to get sick and die or they might even go as far as pitting it against another animal for pure entertainment. Gee, sounds a lot like cock or pit bull fighting doesn't it?

I don't think it's hypocritical to be able to love and respect all animals and yet also use them as a food source for another animal as long as it's done with respect and care. I raise a lot of mice and rats for our snake collection. I probably spend more time taking care of these rodents than I really do with my snakes actually. While they are raised to be food items, they are also well cared for and fed and kept in very clean conditions. My rodents are probably even taken better care of than some dog or cat owners take care of their beloved pets!

I think the problem is that people, especially our society, try to see things in a right or wrong world when in reality, right and wrong are merely ideological illusions that we bestow upon ourselves so that we can pretend that we are somehow above the harsh reality of our true world.

So, is it wrong that this one particular individual was feeding cats to his snake? On the basic premise, I don't believe so. Especially not if his sole intention was merely for the sake of just feeding another animal. If you lived in an area that had coyotes and kept outdoor cats and one day you found a cat killed by a coyote, you might be sad or even angered, but you are of the mind that this is merely natural for this to happen. It's no different than a snake eating a cat, or a rat or whatever really. Now, if the snake didn't want to eat cats and the guy was forcefeeding him one, then that might be a different story too. But that raises another major question doesn't it? How many of us use tactics to feed reptiles a food item such as a mouse that they normally don't want to eat? Hm, force feeding, lizard/frog/toad scenting, all those tactics? Yeah, we're really ones to pass judgement onto others ;)
 
I agree. I also raise rodents and have a few favorites that have become hand-tame (though I really don't like the ASF as a species) and I am aware that it might be hypocrisy that I can feed those to my snakes and still have such an emotional response to the thought of cats as food items, but all I can say to respond to this is I just really love cats. I keep mine indoors so if I lived in coyote territory that wouldn't happen unless the cat somehow got out or the coyote in, either way I would not hold it against a coyote or snake for having to eat. It is not the snakes' fault the owner is an idiot. Like I said if you don't like cats just substitute YOUR pet and how it makes you feel to think about somebody deliberately stunning it to feed to a reptile? Or if you love snakes how mad it makes you to think of someone killing them with a shovel? I know not everyone is a cat lover, I have heard of all kinds of nasty stuff people do to them like go hunting and "bury the cats, keep the rabbits" or even " they make great bait in crab traps" It just seems like out of the domestic pet animals cats are especially disliked and prone to be tortured/abused. It's just that if someone does something like that around me and are stupid enough to tell me about it I WILL do something about it to try and stop other cats from having to suffer.
 
Well Jen, it's all a matter of culture really. Ours is a culture based on many hypocrisies, some downright funny. I'm sure a lot of Hindus feel the same way about the American culture of killing and eating cows. In fact, they also regard rats as a sacred animal as well where we regard them as pests and vectors for disease. When you really look at the bigger picture, our American culture is really only a few hundred years old whereas most of the worlds other cultures have been around for thousands of years that we often consider backwards and unorthodox.

But what it amounts to is basic programming. We are programmed to think that dogs and cats are human companions when in reality, they are merely highly inbred domesticated animals that were produced only for our own use. It's not like the animal really has a choice or say in the matter not unlike any other animal we take in as a pet.

So, where does that fit in with the feeding of a dog or a cat to something such as a snake? Well, it all depends on your openness of mind really. Personally, I do not see anything logically wrong with this. What I find amusing is the fact that people who keep reptiles that have such an adverse emotional response in the matter. After all, we consistently sacrifice animals to be fed to our reptiles, simple as that really. If someone could prove to me that a mouse or a rat has any less feeling of pain or fear and the lack of wanting to survive when compared to a dog or a cat, then maybe I might want to reconsider my position on this. But the fact is, no animal regardless of species or even intellectual level, wants to become a prey item for another animal, none! In fact, I think it's rather sad when we can subjugate ourselves to condone the killing of one species of animal while condemning the killing of another just because of some programmed emotional attachment we might have.

What I think gives a black eye to the reptile industry is not the fact that these types of incidents happen, but the exact reasons why they happen. In other words, there's no denying that there's a significant group of people that merely get a snake or a lizard (such as a nile monitor) just so they can feed it something live to watch that animal suffer and die. That's what sickens me! It's these people that hurt our industry the most, their lack of respect and empathy for any and all life. These are the same people that once they become bored with their monster pet, then lose interest for it to get sick and die or they might even go as far as pitting it against another animal for pure entertainment. Gee, sounds a lot like cock or pit bull fighting doesn't it?

I don't think it's hypocritical to be able to love and respect all animals and yet also use them as a food source for another animal as long as it's done with respect and care. I raise a lot of mice and rats for our snake collection. I probably spend more time taking care of these rodents than I really do with my snakes actually. While they are raised to be food items, they are also well cared for and fed and kept in very clean conditions. My rodents are probably even taken better care of than some dog or cat owners take care of their beloved pets!

I think the problem is that people, especially our society, try to see things in a right or wrong world when in reality, right and wrong are merely ideological illusions that we bestow upon ourselves so that we can pretend that we are somehow above the harsh reality of our true world.

So, is it wrong that this one particular individual was feeding cats to his snake? On the basic premise, I don't believe so. Especially not if his sole intention was merely for the sake of just feeding another animal. If you lived in an area that had coyotes and kept outdoor cats and one day you found a cat killed by a coyote, you might be sad or even angered, but you are of the mind that this is merely natural for this to happen. It's no different than a snake eating a cat, or a rat or whatever really. Now, if the snake didn't want to eat cats and the guy was forcefeeding him one, then that might be a different story too. But that raises another major question doesn't it? How many of us use tactics to feed reptiles a food item such as a mouse that they normally don't want to eat? Hm, force feeding, lizard/frog/toad scenting, all those tactics? Yeah, we're really ones to pass judgement onto others ;)

Wow, this is pretty much how I feel. Alot of you know, I'm a rat lover. I like dogs and cats just fine, but prefer rats as pets. So of course, it hurts my heart that they are used as a food source. I can completely empathize with Jen about how she feels about cats, and I do believe that people like that kitten-killing snake owner gives the rest of us a bad name. I think what he did to his daughter psychologically is pretty near to child abuse, and I personally hope he rots in you-know-where.

I only advocate humanely killed prey for reptiles, with as little suffering as possible. The species doesn't faze ME much personally, but because of the way Americans are conditioned, using animals such as dogs and cats can only hurt our cause. We already have too many cities that ban reptile ownership, so let's not be stupid :)
 
What I have to say about this as a cat lover and owner, I can't imagine feeding a companion animal like a cat or a dog to my snake. I don't own big snakes and never will. However, if I did I would feed it appropriate commercial raised animals(rats, pigs).

As far as that man not being able to get his snake to eat rats again, what if they tried "scenting" the rats with kittens? It seems to work with non mouse eating corns who need to have lizard scented pinks to get them started. Maybe scenting the rats with kittens would work the same with the burm?
 
Seems that a cat had wandered into my backyard, and decided to investigate Baby.
I ask again (and again and again) . . . how on earth can anyone find it acceptable to let their cat roam free?! Unfortunately (?), the cat got ate. :shrugs:

Well Jen, it's all a matter of culture really. Ours is a culture based on many hypocrisies, some downright funny.
. . . et al . . .
Yeah, we're really ones to pass judgement onto others ;)
Excellent post. One of the best ever I've read.

If we want to look at intelligence instead of fuzziness, pigs are arguably much more intelligent than cats and/or dogs. :shrugs:

Fun topic.
D80
 
I think what grosses me out about anyone eating cats or dogs is that the cats and dogs are predators- they just don't seem like "food." I also would never care to sample bear or raccoon, but enjoy deer and antelope. I personally don't eat reptiles, though gator is served nearly everywhere here.
 
yep, hypocrisy is everywhere.

Raptor rescue is spending money they don't have on food-bunnies, while the SPCA is putting down animals no different than those destined to be raptor food - and just discarding the bodies. But can you imagine what kind of fit the public would throw if the SPCA shipped off it's 'problem bunnies' to be eaten by raptors? If you were to feed cats to your snake and people found out you'd be labeled a sicko.

If I found out someone was feeding cats to their burm? I admit, I'd probably distance myself from that person. It is not something our society is OK with, and if people found out I would not want to be considered part of that. But logically, I know there is no reason cats are any better/worse than mice.
 
The thread title said bring your opinions with you, not check them at the front door. I have stated a few times that my opinion was based on a gut feeling, an instinctive reaction. I can understand the logic that a lot of cats are euthanized and the bodies disposed of that could be used as snake food and it makes me sick to think of cats used as food just the same.
I really dont like the feeling people think I'm a hypocrite for having strong sentiments about this. That's why I was asking if you replace "cats" with an animal that means a lot to you and maybe you will feel the same that it is sick to consider them as food. Or if you aren't an animal person, well there is too many people in the world how would you feel about it if it were a child? My point is you have to draw the line somewhere and if that line is drawn in a different place in other cultures that doesnt make it OK in THIS culture. I am not going to harp on about this anymore, either you get it or you don't.
 
I wasn't referring specifically to you, did I mention you anywhere in my post? I meant more just society in general, and explained as such in my post (the example of people throwing a fit if SPCA bunnies went to raptor rescue). I fact, in my post I kind of agreed with you as I said I would distance myself from anyone who feed cats to their burms, therefore you can assume (I would hope) that it's not something I would EVER do.

And no, if someone was maintaining a feeder colony of garters for...whatever would eat them, I wouldn't have a problem with that. As for feeder humans, I must admit, as a subscriber to that species I'll allow myself to say that is completely different than feeding cats to a burm.

I know this post didn't say "check your opinions at the door", as far as I know, no one here is faulting you for having - or posting - your opinion.
 
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