My Hybrid is a Golddust.

[carol]

This year I test bred my "Rusty Frosted". He was purchased as a hatchling in 2002 as the offspring of two F2 Hypos that were out of a Hypo Corn X Grey Rat paring. I always suspected he carried the Caramel gene, but never suspected Ultra until the great "Ultra" thread.

1st test breeding, Rusty Frosted male X Snow female. This female was proven not het Hypo A after producing over 60 different hatchlings using two different proven male Hypos.

Results from 1st clutch:
18 eggs
Ultramel - 2
Ultramel Anery - 3
Amel - 5
Snow - 8

Results from second clutch
11 eggs
Ultramel - 1
Ultramel Anery - 3
Amel - 3
Snow - 4

2nd test breeding, Rusty Frosted male X Amber female (proven Hypo A)

Clutch results
9 eggs
All Caramels, no Ambers.

Interesting enough, these were the pairings that produced the undetectable Hybrids in this thread
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?p=328391#post328391

First are some pics of dad, many more pics to follow.

 

[carol]

Here is one of my favorite pics of a Ultramel Anery from the test breedings. A good friend took it for me. Looks like corn, eh?

I'll get some more pics up tomorrow.

 

[cka]

I remember you were offering him up for 60 bucks too lol...Congrats Carol :*)

 

[carol]

I remember you were offering him up for 60 bucks too lol...Congrats Carol :*)

Heh, ya. That was his brother. I still have him, no one ever wanted him so I kept him. Not sure what to do with him now.

 

[stephen]

ultramel

Well ,rusty frosted are grey rat x corn and the first I have seen of them was from Susan@ Hardy reptiles,but as far as all the ultramels being hybrids I would find unlikely,there is ultramel in many of kinds of snakes and suppose they also can be in grey rat snakes also.I have seen ultramel gopher snakes and I believe there are boas also,the term T+ albinos have been used to describe these animals. I am pretty sure that Mike falcon was the first to catch a wild caught ultra cornsnake.I know Mike has been breeding corns and other snakes before we probably ever knew what a cornsnake was.I therefore would imagine that he would be able to tell the difference between a grey rat and a cornsnake,alot of people believe that if its a ultra or ultramel automatically it is het for carmel,which in my experience is just not the case. That is cool finding out that your rusty frosteds carry the ultra gene,but I wouldnt go as far as to say they are all hybrids

 

[Joejr14]

I wouldn't go that far either, and I don't think that this snake looks the same as Rich's golddusts.

One thing I do find interesting is the head pattern. Looks identical, no?

 

[stephen]

adult goldust

Here is a picture of one of my adult goldusts~

 

[Serpwidgets]

Hurley and I have been wondering for some time whether gray rats are all homozygous ultra, meaning this would be the wild-type gene for gray rats. It seems like a lot of snakes that have come from gray rat crosses resemble ultras.

The breeding trials for this would be relatively simple, too... cross normal "pure" gray rats X amelanistic "pure" corns, and if the F1s are always "hypo" (ultramel) phenotypes, it's a pretty good clue.

 

[panda]

Check out these two from an Ultramel Ultramel breeding

The first looks a lot like yours (bad photo) and the second resemble a grey rat. They are siblings. The One has regular colored irises.

 

[panda]

Grey Rat x Snow Corn Cross

That would certainly solve the Ultra mystery. All someone needs to do is make the cross.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I always find it odd, when a hybrid that is 50% hybrid blood is compared to a hybrid that is only 10% or less hybrid. One is definitely a hybrid, when the other is definitely not. Nobody could pick out a hybrid that was only 25% hybrid, so how in the world would somebody pick one out that has less hybrid blood in them? Carol's next generation would take it down to 12% and then the next to 6%.

You will find if you read the Ultra Mystery Thread, that Mike Falcon was the one who had the first Ultra carrier, and he bred them to Gray Rats AND Corns. He actual thought the carrier was a Gray Rat X Corn Hybrid. Mike sold some to Mike Barr, who produced a lot of Corn Hybrid Crosses, one of which was named Frosteds. One of the ones he was proud of was a Graysnow. Barr sold some of these to Mike Shivers who created most of the Goldust line with them. Shivers said that his line had Gray Rat in them, and he wondered if everybody would think so highly of them if they knew. Most Frosteds are Gray Rat Crosses and many carry the Anery Gene and Caramel genes, and what do you know, the Ultra gene too, imagine that.

Some people kept the hybrid stigma attached to this line and they remained with a higher percentage of Gray Rat Blood in them. Others, decided to forget about the Gray Rat Blood and bred them to Corns generation after generation and some of them could have less than 3% Gray Rat blood in them now, and are as pure as any other mutant Corn we have. Some people will say that there is no proof that Gray Rats were breed into the Ultra line, or there is no Proof that my Ultra has Gray Rat in them. There is just as much proof as any other hybrid line, but it has been ignored and now they have been bred into everything, so get over it. Our Corn Snake Pool has some hybrid blood in it. The Creamcicles started it and the Ultras finished it.

 

[carol]

I wouldn't go that far either, and I don't think that this snake looks the same as Rich's golddusts.

One thing I do find interesting is the head pattern. Looks identical, no?

I don't think he looks the same either, but then again, he is a 50/50. By looking at the other thread you can see how much they change as 25/75 animals. I am not implying anything, just that it's scary how corn like the 25/75's look.

 

[carol]

I always find it odd, when a hybrid that is 50% hybrid blood is compared to a hybrid that is only 10% or less hybrid. One is definitely a hybrid, when the other is definitely not. Nobody could pick out a hybrid that was only 25% hybrid, so how in the world would somebody pick one out that has less hybrid blood in them? Carol's next generation would take it down to 12% and then the next to 6%.

You will find if you read the Ultra Mystery Thread, that Mike Falcon was the one who had the first Ultra carrier, and he bred them to Gray Rats AND Corns. He actual thought the carrier was a Gray Rat X Corn Hybrid. Mike sold some to Mike Barr, who produced a lot of Corn Hybrid Crosses, one of which was named Frosteds. One of the ones he was proud of was a Graysnow. Barr sold some of these to Mike Shivers who created most of the Goldust line with them. Shivers said that his line had Gray Rat in them, and he wondered if everybody would think so highly of them if they knew. Most Frosteds are Gray Rat Crosses and many carry the Anery Gene and Caramel genes, and what do you know, the Ultra gene too, imagine that.

Some people kept the hybrid stigma attached to this line and they remained with a higher percentage of Gray Rat Blood in them. Others, decided to forget about the Gray Rat Blood and bred them to Corns generation after generation and some of them could have less than 3% Gray Rat blood in them now, and are as pure as any other mutant Corn we have. Some people will say that there is no proof that Gray Rats were breed into the Ultra line, or there is no Proof that my Ultra has Gray Rat in them. There is just as much proof as any other hybrid line, but it has been ignored and now they have been bred into everything, so get over it. Our Corn Snake Pool has some hybrid blood in it. The Creamcicles started it and the Ultras finished it.

That is one heck of a great summary Joe. Thanks so much for adding it to this thread. :bowdown:

 

[Menhir]

I agree with you Joe, but I will again state what I did last time in the Ultra discussion - as long as the Ultra gene itself comes from a corn, it's a corn gene. If the gene comes from the grey rat, it's a grey rat gene. Nothing will change this no matter if you breed 20 generations of corns into this line.

If I remember correctly, Ultra was said to come from a corn and was just bred into hibird lines. If one could show, that (many) grey rats maybe have this Ultra gene, I would doubt the story of the ultra-corn gene. If it is not, I think all we can do is trust the original breeder.

Greetings

 

[lefty_mussolini]

I always find it odd, when a hybrid that is 50% hybrid blood is compared to a hybrid that is only 10% or less hybrid. One is definitely a hybrid, when the other is definitely not. Nobody could pick out a hybrid that was only 25% hybrid, so how in the world would somebody pick one out that has less hybrid blood in them? Carol's next generation would take it down to 12% and then the next to 6%.

You will find if you read the Ultra Mystery Thread, that Mike Falcon was the one who had the first Ultra carrier, and he bred them to Gray Rats AND Corns. He actual thought the carrier was a Gray Rat X Corn Hybrid. Mike sold some to Mike Barr, who produced a lot of Corn Hybrid Crosses, one of which was named Frosteds. One of the ones he was proud of was a Graysnow. Barr sold some of these to Mike Shivers who created most of the Goldust line with them. Shivers said that his line had Gray Rat in them, and he wondered if everybody would think so highly of them if they knew. Most Frosteds are Gray Rat Crosses and many carry the Anery Gene and Caramel genes, and what do you know, the Ultra gene too, imagine that.

Some people kept the hybrid stigma attached to this line and they remained with a higher percentage of Gray Rat Blood in them. Others, decided to forget about the Gray Rat Blood and bred them to Corns generation after generation and some of them could have less than 3% Gray Rat blood in them now, and are as pure as any other mutant Corn we have. Some people will say that there is no proof that Gray Rats were breed into the Ultra line, or there is no Proof that my Ultra has Gray Rat in them. There is just as much proof as any other hybrid line, but it has been ignored and now they have been bred into everything, so get over it. Our Corn Snake Pool has some hybrid blood in it. The Creamcicles started it and the Ultras finished it.

Well, that's all some very interesting input into this discussion, eh? Thanks

 

[Vinman]

hey chuck, I dont know if all gray rat hold the ultra gene after all there have been wild caught hybrids between rat /corn crosses found. Maybee this ultra gene is what makes the white oak phase in gray rats? After all when you compare a reg. gray rat to the white oak phase the is a much diffrent look over all not just the color. White oak gray rats have that ultra look to them.

 

[Serpwidgets]

hey chuck, I dont know if all gray rat hold the ultra gene after all there have been wild caught hybrids between rat /corn crosses found. Maybee this ultra gene is what makes the white oak phase in gray rats? After all when you compare a reg. gray rat to the white oak phase the is a much diffrent look over all not just the color. White oak gray rats have that ultra look to them.

True, but the albino gene would need to be present in the corn in order to make hybrids that look non-normal. So if a wild gray rat was homo ultra and bred to a normal wild corn, the offspring would be hybrids het for ultra so they'd look "normal" (well, you know what I mean.) :grin01:

On the other hand, if you took one of these known wild hybrids and crossed it to an amel corn and got some "ultramels" this is still a pretty good indicator of the ultra gene originating in gray rats, too.

It is definitely a possibility (given that we really know nothing right now) that it's not the entire species but just a significant portion of it. The other question that was brought up as an extension of that idea is whether gray rats are "just" black rats homo for the ultra gene. :shrugs: I don't pay enough attention to all the non-corn species so that could be a crackpot idea for all I know. :santa:

 

[Serpwidgets]

...as long as the Ultra gene itself comes from a corn, it's a corn gene. If the gene comes from the grey rat, it's a grey rat gene. Nothing will change this no matter if you breed 20 generations of corns into this line.

Then isn't this true of all the genes they have in common, which also originated in a "different-species" ancestor? :shrugs:

For example, say some of the anery corns in Florida eventually diverge into a new species called "brown ratsnakes" and are classified as Pantherophis Trundlefartius. Does that mean the anery gene in those snakes is a "corn gene" too because it originated in corns?

 

[Vinman]

I'm just saying that the white oak phase gray rat has that ultra look . They come from one local only. Maybe the white oak phase is the ultra gene . the fact that ultra is codoment with amel would only show up in the crosses carrying the amel gene. I'm sure that there are amels in the wild the first amel corn was a wild caught adult. I wonder if any body has crossed the ultras into a amel black rat???

 

[Hurley]

I don't know that you can say that a gene belongs to the gray rat or the corn. It's a gene, a simple base pair mutation or deletion most likely. Mutations happen spontaneously and ultra could just as easily spontaneously show up in a corn as easily as amel did or lavender or charcoal. I don't consider the amel gene as a 'corn gene' as it has shown itself spontaneously in multiple reptiles, mammals, birds, etc. Arguing about what species it belongs to doesn't make sense to me. What species it is in makes no difference, no one species owns all the genes it's comprised of. I'd be interested to see what the percentage is on common genes in corns vs. gray rats...I'd be willing to say it's well over 95% and I'm probably low-balling it at that. Why is fertility so high in these hybrids? Because they share so many of the same genes to begin with.

The worry is (to some) how much other genetic material has been dragged along with it that would change the snake from corn in behavior, shape, egg production, etc.

I'm afraid I just don't get hung up in purity because I think that "purity" is an illusion and the loss of purity is like losing the knowledge that Santa Claus is real. Define purity when you've got a species of snake that exists within ranges where it intergrades naturally with other species in the area. We call corn snakes a range of phenotypes that have very similar patterning, coloration, behavior, and reproductive processes. Where in the sand do you draw that definitive line of "purity"? I'd go so far to say that we have enough range in corns right now that some corns (corns for multiple generations back) are less "pure" and conforming to standard than some 12.5 or 25% rat corn crosses. I'm sorry, but I see it as a grey zone, a foggy area. Trying to draw a line of pure vs. impure vs. other rat snake species is a bit like trying to say there are only 3 colors, white, gray, and black. So how "white" is "white enough" to be """pure"""?

Oh, and Vinnie does bring up an interesting question with the white oaks phase. I don't have an answer, but it's something to ponder.