Physical Difference Between Motley, Mot/Stripe, and Mot het Stripe

[pridecity]

I have most of the genetics down, but I don't understand the difference between Motley, Mot/Stripe, and Motley het Stripe in a physical way. I have stripes, and I have motleys. Then there is my gold dust. As far as I know, she is a motley, but how would I tell the difference between a motley and the other two?

I've attached a few pictures of the gold dust. In your opinion, is she just a motley? How can you tell? If she were a Mot/Stripe, what would be the physical indication? If she were Motley het for Stripe, would there be anything indicated in her appearance?

Side Note: I got her from a reptile shop and do not know if she is het for anything. Let's assume not unless you can point out any physical indications.

 

[Nanci]

There aren't any visible indicators of het stripe. Whatever causes the dots of a motley snake to elongate into partial or full stripes is not related to the stripe gene.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Are you sure she's a golddust? Could be the lighting but her eyes look brown to me, rather than the dark green most golddusts have.

 

[kloe2008]

Oh wow, you know a lot of stuff. Motley & Stripe are on the same allele(?) though correct? So it is possible to carry both the mot & stripe gene but never show both traits.... ???

Or am I just way out of my depth and got that all wrong?

 

[pridecity]

She was sold to me as a Gold Dust. I talked the store down from $75 to $55 because I was buying several snakes at once. Her eyes are brown I suppose. More like the lighter color. They could be green... She's going into blue so I don't know if that affects the eye color right before they go cloudy. I snapped a quick picture but it's really dark.

 

[Caryl]

I have most of the genetics down, but I don't understand the difference between Motley, Mot/Stripe, and Motley het Stripe in a physical way. I have stripes, and I have motleys. Then there is my gold dust. As far as I know, she is a motley, but how would I tell the difference between a motley and the other two?

I've attached a few pictures of the gold dust. In your opinion, is she just a motley? How can you tell? If she were a Mot/Stripe, what would be the physical indication? If she were Motley het for Stripe, would there be anything indicated in her appearance?

Side Note: I got her from a reptile shop and do not know if she is het for anything. Let's assume not unless you can point out any physical indications.

Motley and stripe are allelic. Motley means just that; it affects the dorsal pattern in a lot of ways, and often in very unique ways. There isn't any way to look at a snake who's expressing the motley allele and know if it is het for stripe. That can only be known for certain if a parent was a homozygous stripe, or through breeding trials.

Pridecity, your snake looks like a motley. The striping effect on the neck and other places isn't at all unusual for motley snakes.

There aren't any visible indicators of het stripe. Whatever causes the dots of a motley snake to elongate into partial or full stripes is not related to the stripe gene.

Exactly right.

Oh wow, you know a lot of stuff. Motley & Stripe are on the same allele(?) though correct? So it is possible to carry both the mot & stripe gene but never show both traits.... ???

Or am I just way out of my depth and got that all wrong?

I'm a little unclear on what you're asking, but here's a stab at clarity.

Yes, motley and stripe are alleles. It is possible to be het for motley OR het for stripe and not show the trait. In other words, snakes with a normal pattern may be het motley OR het stripe. There aren't any "het markers" to indicate motley or stripe.

Snakes who are het for both motley AND stripe are visually motleys. The terminology on this one is confusing because they're called several things. Striped-motley, pinstriped, q-tipped, and motley-stripe, and even het-motley/het-strip are some of these names. They all mean that the snake carries the motley allele and the stripe allele.

I hope that helps.

 

[Nanci]

Snakes who are het for both motley AND stripe are visually motleys. The terminology on this one is confusing because they're called several things. Striped-motley, pinstriped, q-tipped, and motley-stripe, and even het-motley/het-strip are some of these names. They all mean that the snake carries the motley allele and the stripe allele.

I hope that helps.

I'm going to quote The Cornsnake Morph Guide 2008:

"Selectively-bred Variations of Motley

Pin-Striped and Q-Tip Motleys

Some motleys have elongated saddles and intermittent stripes down the centerline, or a single pinstripe down the back. These are often referred to as "motley/stripe" or "striped motley" but problems arise with these names because it is then unclear whether the term is describing the snake's genotype (ms mm) or its phenotype. To avoid this situation, pin-striped and q-tipped are used to describe these varations."

I personally have a fully-striped Miami motley (Zora), with a continuous stripe from her head to her tail, with no breaks, including no break at the neck. She does not have any stripe genetics at all, only motley.

 

[pridecity]

Okay. I think I have it. Physically, you can tell if a snake is striped or motley but not if it's het for either as well. Such as mine could be het for stripe but there is no physical indication. It is the same the other way around.

Mot/Stripe would show up visually as Motley? Or could it show up visually as Stripe? This is the one that confuses me most. Is Mot/Stripe all het and is basically shorthand for "My snake is het for both of these traits"?


I so want to get the new morph guide, but I don't have a credit card. Almost 21 and never had one. I'll be working on that after I pay rent because I really really really want a copy.

 

[Caryl]

Motley and stripe are allelic. Motley means just that; it affects the dorsal pattern in a lot of ways, and often in very unique ways. There isn't any way to look at a snake who's expressing the motley allele and know if it is het for stripe. That can only be known for certain if a parent was a homozygous stripe, or through breeding trials.

Pridecity, your snake looks like a motley. The striping effect on the neck and other places isn't at all unusual for motley snakes.



Exactly right.



I'm a little unclear on what you're asking, but here's a stab at clarity.

Yes, motley and stripe are alleles. It is possible to be het for motley OR het for stripe and not show the trait. In other words, snakes with a normal pattern may be het motley OR het stripe. There aren't any "het markers" to indicate motley or stripe.

Snakes who are het for both motley AND stripe are visually motleys. The terminology on this one is confusing because they're called several things. Striped-motley, pinstriped, q-tipped, and motley-stripe, and even het-motley/het-strip are some of these names. They all mean that the snake carries the motley allele and the stripe allele.
I hope that helps.

Jeez. I know what I meant, but I stated it WRONG. I was in a hurry and just plain goofed. I'm sorry.:headbang::headbang::headbang:

Yes, snakes who are het for bot are visually motleys. The bold portion is just plain INCORRECT. These terms are all used, but I apologize for additional confusion. They are, in fact, used for both genotype and phenotype as the Morph Guide mentions. The current request is to use them for a motley phenotype.

I'm going to quote The Cornsnake Morph Guide 2008:

"Selectively-bred Variations of Motley

Pin-Striped and Q-Tip Motleys

Some motleys have elongated saddles and intermittent stripes down the centerline, or a single pinstripe down the back. These are often referred to as "motley/stripe" or "striped motley" but problems arise with these names because it is then unclear whether the term is describing the snake's genotype (ms mm) or its phenotype. To avoid this situation, pin-striped and q-tipped are used to describe these varations."
I personally have a fully-striped Miami motley (Zora), with a continuous stripe from her head to her tail, with no breaks, including no break at the neck. She does not have any stripe genetics at all, only motley.

Nanci, thank you for the correction.

I don't have any of my Morph Guides here. What is the "official" recommendation for terminology for those animals who are het for both motley and stripe?

 

[Nanci]

I don't have any of my Morph Guides here. What is the "official" recommendation for terminology for those animals who are het for both motley and stripe?

Let me see if I can comprehend this.

You can't have an normal offspring from a Stripe father and a Motley mother- it would be a Motely het Stripe.

So if you have a normal father, the mother could be:

(and this is where I usually end up looking like an idiot, when I get over my head in genetics discussions!)

Motley (baby het motley)

Motley het stripe (baby 50% poss. het. Motley, 50% poss. het. Stripe)

Stripe (baby het stripe)

************

If you mean what is the "official" terminology for the offspring of a Stripe father and a Motley mother, that would be Motley het Stripe.

****************

When I get the new Morph Guide in the spring, I bring the old one in to work! I have one on my desk at home, and one that I can take out to Fort Tort. I have them all over the place!

 

[Caryl]

************

If you mean what is the "official" terminology for the offspring of a Stripe father and a Motley mother, that would be Motley het Stripe.

****************

When I get the new Morph Guide in the spring, I bring the old one in to work! I have one on my desk at home, and one that I can take out to Fort Tort. I have them all over the place!

I understand the genetics.

I'm trying to keep track of the terminology! lol The problem IMHO is that "motley/stripe" seems as if it logically should mean an animal is het for both motley and stripe. *Sigh.*

Good idea on keeping a Morph Guide at work! I've got copies of Kathy's book here at school for student use. I ought to bring in an old Morph Guide, too.

 

[carnivorouszoo]

I ran the photo through my lightness filter, does this look accurate? If yes then the snakes eye look a greenish brown to me.

 

[paulh]

Let me see if I can comprehend this.

You can't have an normal offspring from a Stripe father and a Motley mother- it would be a Motely het Stripe.

Correct. Babies from a stripe father (with a pair of stripe mutant genes) mated to a motley mother (with a pair of motley mutant genes) have a motley mutant gene paired with a stripe mutant gene. Motley het stripe is often used to describe these snakes, but I think motley/stripe or motley//stripe is much better. Motley/stripe is shorter and is less likely to make newbies think that the motley mutant gene is in one gene pair and the stripe mutant gene is in a second gene pair. Of course, m^m//m^s is even shorter. (// stands for a pair of chromosomes.)

The matings are right.

 

[pridecity]

carnivorouszoo, that's about as close as we are going to get unless I can get her outside in natural light. Seeing as it snow (again), I don't see that happening for a while. I looked through Ian's Viv site and cannot find her close to anything but a Gold Dust. If she isn't a GD, what morph would she be?

 

[carnivorouszoo]

I ran all your pics through the lightness filter I have so they could bee seen clearly and went to ians viv website and honestly this looks like a Caramel Mot to me. Just seems kinda dark for a Goldust. Best way to find out is a breeding trial. Would have to breed to an Ultamel het caramel I am guessing. Then you would get :

Phenotype:

1 / 8 Ultra het Motley, Caramel
1 / 4 Ultramel het Motley, Caramel
1 / 8 Amel het Motley, Caramel
1 / 4 Gold Dust ( Ultramel, Caramel ) het Motley
1 / 8 Ultra Caramel ( Ultra, Caramel ) het Motley
1 / 8 Butter ( Amel, Caramel ) het Motley

Genotype:

1 / 8 Ultra het Caramel, Motley
1 / 4 Ultramel het Caramel, Motley
1 / 8 Amel het Caramel, Motley
1 / 8 Ultra, Caramel het Motley
1 / 4 Ultramel, Caramel het Motley
1 / 8 Amel, Caramel het Motley

That is IF your snake is a golddust. If NOT a golddust you would get:

Phenotype:

1 / 2 Caramel het Motley, Amel or Ultra
1 / 2 Normal het Motley, Caramel, Amel or Ultra

Genotype:

1 / 4 Caramel het Amel, Motley
1 / 4 Caramel het Ultra, Motley
1 / 4 Normal het Amel, Caramel, Motley
1 / 4 Normal het Ultra, Caramel, Motley


Hope that helps!

 

[Susan]

Actually, the correct terminology for a snake that is carrying both a motley gene and a stripe gene is "het motley het stripe", but that confuses people into thinking the snake doesn't have the homozygous phenotype so the more popular, but less accurate, "motley het stripe" is becoming the preferred term for this genetic combination. Some people will still use "motley/stripe", but that can get confused with "striped motley", which may or may not be het stripe and only indicates a motley with a long pin-stripe.

When motley and stripe are paired together, the motley gene will be dominant in expression in the phenotype, i.e. the snake will look like a homozygous motley in any one of the multiple variations (hurricane, Q-tipped, pin-striped or a combination of all of them and everything in between). Breeding 2 motley het stripes together will produce 25% homozygous motleys, 50% motley het stripe (75% phenotypical motleys) and 25% stripes. You cannot identify the homozygous motleys from the motleys het stripe by phenotype!

I have gotten the impression in the past year or so that many people believe that the pin-striped motleys from a line that carries the stripe gene are probably the ones that are indeed het stripe, giving the impression that it is the stripe gene that causes the full pin-striped motley pattern. This is incorrect thinking as homozygous motleys can and do show a full pin-stripe and motleys het stripe can and do show the other types of motley pattern.

And the OP's snake looks like a gorgeous caramel motley to me, not a golddust motley. I would expect a golddust motley to be a bit lighter in coloration than this particular snake is.

 

[paulh]

Actually, the correct terminology for a snake that is carrying both a motley gene and a stripe gene is "het motley het stripe", ....

I don't recall the textbooks providing any guidelines for words to describe this sort of gene pair. They generally go with symbols, like m^m//m^s.

 

[pridecity]

I did a quick image search via google. I found this picture: http://www.sneakyserpents.com/images/carmel_motley.jpg

My snake is darker than the linked snake, but not by much. The linked snake looks roughly the same size.

If it turns out that she is not a Gold Dust, then I am extremely upset. As I said before, she was sold to me for $55 after I talked them down $20. I wanted her because she was supposed to be a GD. You would think that a snake shop who deals 85% with snakes (and about 50% of that corns) would know what she is. I think I'll go to each of the shops and ask what they think she is, just to see what answers I get. Grrr... Now I'll have to add an actual GD Mot to the list of snakes I want in the next year.

 

[Susan]

I don't recall the textbooks providing any guidelines for words to describe this sort of gene pair. They generally go with symbols, like m^m//m^s.

Well, het motley het stripe is more accurate, IMO, than motley het stripe or motley/stripe but I still prefer to use motley het stripe as the others do nothing but confuse those that are unsure of all the nuances seen when dealing with corn snake genetics, proven by the fact that we are discussing in yet another of many threads on this very subject. Yes, the symbols are the most accurate way of writing it, but quite difficult to speak and very rarely used in the day-to-day buying/selling and general discussion of corn snakes.

 

[Nanci]

I think your snake's eyes look green. Can you take a picture in natural sunlight?