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Profit?

C

compasslogic

New member
Dear breeders,

Do any of you make actual profit off of breeding snakes? I come from dog showing/breeding world, where literally NO ONE makes a profit. In fact showing dogs for conformation is a huge money sink. And the ethical/responsible breeders will only breed sound dogs that are proven out as genetically sound by conformation championship titles, or working titles, and stuff like that. But nobody makes any money, we all just spend it.

Can you make money breeding snakes? Or is it like the dogs, where you just do it because you love the animals and love genetics and love improving the form of these animals that we share our lives with?

The reason I'm asking is because I would love to breed corns some day, but my SO absolutely doesn't want me to. I spend a lot of money on my pets. Almost all of my personal money goes to my show dog, for example, so I can't blame him for seeing more pets as a big expense that I couldn't afford alone. But then he saw a $1000 price tag at a reptile show on a corn (just a normal tessera... so weird price but whatever) and mentioned that if I could make money off of it he wouldn't care at all and I can have as many snakes as I want.

Money is certainly not why I wanted/want to breed, but apparently it's the key to getting my boy on board. I did some math on an excel sheet, and as far as I can tell, if you are really careful to not spend too much on decor or tanks and just use tubs and plastics and not pretty vivs, you could come out positive. That is for the pretty morphs only, however, not just normals and amels.

TLDR: Do any of you breeders make profit off of breeding snakes? Break even? Or are you in the negative and do it just because you love it?

Thank you!
 
I've always come out in the red with corns. Always. Even producing higher end stuff. The corn market is just so over saturated. They're super easy to keep and breed, so anyone can do it. And they produce relatively large clutches, which means there's plenty of supply.

Plus these are living animals. So females could not breed, lay slugs, get egg bound, you have terrible odds, etc. So many factors can affect things.

I imagine if you hit an economy of scale (eg South Mountain Reptiles) you could start to turn a profit, but your average hobbyist won't.

The only think that keeps me in the black overall are my ball pythons. But that market is quickly spiraling downward so I'll end up in the red this year and probably every year going forward.

The best way to approach this hobby is just that: as a hobby. It should be viewed as a money pit and anything you spend you'll never get back. Do it because you enjoy it.
 
Most hobby breeders do not, or maybe they break even. Some do make enough to buy a few new snakes, and such, but unless you're breeding numbers like Don S (SMR), you cannot expect to make a lot of money.

The care expense is not quite like dogs, seeing as you only feed once a week, and there are no vaccs, etc. needed for snakes, like there are for dogs.

There are a number of breeders who do breed for their sole income, not just Cornsnakes. Nick Mutton and Casey Lazik are both well known (mostly Carpet Pythons and Ball Pythons, but they do have other species as well), both have been breeding for sole income for years.

I'll never get to that point, I don't want to. I love my job, and I never want my breeding projects to become "work". I do it because it is my stress relief from my job, and I enjoy interacting with the animals.

Where did you see a normal Tessera for $1,000? They haven't been that price for a few years. You can find normal Tessera's for $100. The Tessera morphs are anywhere from aboout $200 on up.
 
We've been "officially" breeding for 2 years, well this is the second year. We have been tracking expenses and income for tax reasons, so have a pretty good idea what this is costing. Last year we were in the hole pretty good, around 2 or 3 thousand I think. We actually would have come out fairly even but we bought a lot of animals that year. This year we are close to 2 or 3 thousand in the hole again but have not actually sold very many animals this year, as most are just now becoming ready to be sold.
We did invest in an expensive trio of ready to breed snakes earlier this year, which is why we are so far in the hole again this early in the season.
Counting eggs that are on the ground but haven't hatched and some live born litters that are expected but aren't born yet and that we sell nearly all these proposed babies this year and don't end up holding on to more than a few into next year, all very big and likely wrong assumptions, we are looking at the possibility of nearly breaking even or maybe making a modest profit this year. Like under $1,000 in profit but at least we should be under $1,000 in the hole this year if we sell decently and can manage not to buy very many animals this year.

Luckily, next year most of the rest of our breeder animals should be mature enough to start breeding and we should have already bought all the other snakes still in the plans this year, that we are projecting to make some kind of profit next year, if Murphy is kind.

Eventually, we would like to get to a place where this hobby pays for itself, brings in a little profit or at least nearly pays for itself, which I think those are possible. But actually making some kind of living on it? Not going to happen and especially not with corn snakes. Only a very few people will ever manage to make snake breeding as an actual income work, so don't get into it if that's what you want.

However, eventually it is likely possible to make it pay for itself, if you are smart about acquiring your breeders, have a good plan of what to produce, know as much as you can about the markets where you could sell the babies you produce and have a bit of luck. But you are probably looking at anywhere from 2 to 5 years of being in the hole before it starts paying for itself or even making a profit, just because you need to buy breeders and equipment for incubation and housing for babies those first few years but at least most of that is one time or only every so many year purchases and not steady like food bills.
 
This is great advice and information, thank you! I was never thinking about trying to make a living, I figured that is not possible unless you are running a huge operation. But if I could break even and have a hobby that would pay for itself, that would be amazing!

Keep posting though if anyone else has different experiences with this. Thank you all for answering!
 
My advice would be to look around locally, go to any reptile shows near you and try to figure out either what is in demand in your area or what is underrepresented and might sell well. That's going to be nothing more than an educated guess though, so don't get too fixated on that. It's important but it's equally important to chose a morph(s) or species that you love too and really want to work with and at least that is wholly something you can know and control.
Then I'd suggest picking out your breeders or future breeders carefully, a good deal is nice but quality and the name of the breeder you are getting it from count too, which you probably already know if you're in the show dog world. Think about what you want to be able to produce and the best animals to get as breeders to achieve that. A good, decent understanding of genes will help a lot with that.
Choosing breeders also brings up the question of buying babies, juvies, adults or proven adults and there are pros and cons to each. I think it's a good idea to have a year or 2 of raising at least a few young babies under your belt before incubating your first clutch.
I'd also suggest limiting yourself to one or maybe two clutches your first year and seeing how it goes, make sure it's something you really want to do and that way you will have less chance to get overwhelmed.
 
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I can't speak for corn snakes yet but I'm being ball pythons at the moment and I've been lucky enough that my babies are sold before they hatched. This is mainly because I know a guy who owns a shop that will buy my hatchlings. My advice would be to get to know the local exotic shops and see if they may be interested in your babies. I will not make a profit this year by any stretch, but this clutch will pay for at least the female who laid it.

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A number of my projects are 2-3 steps to obtain my goal.
For example, my Miami Tessera project that I started in 2011 with Tara Smith, I expected to have to do a few generations to get the coloring I wanted, because the sire was an Okeetee Tessera. We were surprised to get the Miami coloring in the first generation (along with some lighter ones, one being the sire to a clutch I produced last year, as well as one that is cooking right now).

Pick projects that you like, and don't be afraid to work on one that may take a couple generations to get what you are looking for. The process may take a few years, but it is fun to see your project come to light when you do get to the desired outcome.
 
I believe that once your caging is paid for and your initial animals are paid for it is fairly easy to at least break even. Just say you have a breeding pair. Feeding two snakes is going to cost you about $5.60 a month ( one large mouse per week each). That is $67.20 a year throw in sani chips, water, etc maybe going to add another 40.00 a year. So we are at about $108.00. Lets say you Breed them and get 16 good eggs that hatch and are problem free. Even at $10.00 a head you still in the green. If you have bred something that is even slightly desirable say 60.00 a head and are able to sell them for retail then you would have made a reasonable profit. I would say tho if you plan on producing more than a couple clutches, have a wholesale set up that will buy all your baby's that you cant get rid of cause feeding a couple adults and feeding a couple hundred hatch-lings are two different things. Just my two cents, hope it was not to lengthy..
 
You can cut costs even further by buying rodents in bulk. That's been my saving grace having to feed rabbits to my big snakes. I'd have to pay almost twice what I pay online locally. Breeding your own rodents can be helpful as well considering they reproduce quickly and can be fed essentially table scraps.

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Granted my projects are pretty small, but my first ever breeding (which only produced amels and normals) paid for the male, the incubator, the Hatchrite, and all other miscellaneous breeding supplies. We didn't make a profit, but it paid for itself.

The second clutch (last year, and again amels and normals) paid for the new breeding pair I bought.

The clutch incubating now should pay for the female's vet bill from last year (just $97) for a RI and a year's worth of mice and bedding. :)

If my new females lay eggs, their clutches should help pay for the care and supplies of the new pairs. One female arrived with a mild RI so I took her to the vet--don't want to risk her getting sicker as she becomes more heavily gravid--and her clutch should pay for her vet bill, assuming she gives us at least 4 viable babies. (Though if one is a blizzard or white out, which there is a 3/32 possibility of for each, it will cost us as my son has wanted one for-ev-errrrrr and we'll have to keep it. ;) )

So, again, not exactly a profit, but in my modest case, it more or less pays for itself.
 
Yes, you definitely need to find a bulk supplier for food to make it worth it! Shipping for mice is generally around $29 to $45 and you can get 100 small pinkies for between $15 to $25 generally from a bulk dealer, whereas I once stupidly let myself run out of small pinkies once and had to buy 12 from a local pet store and ending up paying $26 for the 12!! Which is just ridiculous and everyone would lose lots of money if breeders had to pay that much for their babies!
 
Yes, definitely buy in bulk! I just bought 275 mice (100 pinkies, 100 fuzzies, 75 XL adults for my adult snakes) for $150, shipping included. That will feed all babies for as long as I have them and the adults are set (what with what I got and what I already had in stock) for at least 6mos.

PetSmart/Petco will charge you about $2 per pinkie, which is crazy.
 
Really awesome advice, all around. I've been buying my pinkies at petsmart, so that's going to have to be the first thing to change.

I really want to start with just one pair or trio, and I know exactly what genes I want to work with. To get adults with the genes I want though is going to cost a bundle, because I bet they're going to be some expensive snakes. But it sounds like their someday babies might pay for their costs in the future.

For now though I will wait patiently until those perfect snakes come along :)
 
compasslogic said:
Really awesome advice, all around. I've been buying my pinkies at petsmart, so that's going to have to be the first thing to change.

I really want to start with just one pair or trio, and I know exactly what genes I want to work with. To get adults with the genes I want though is going to cost a bundle, because I bet they're going to be some expensive snakes. But it sounds like their someday babies might pay for their costs in the future.

For now though I will wait patiently until those perfect snakes come along :)
Click to expand...
I started with a trio of snakes from vms herp. And I can't wait for them to get to breeding size. Gonna be a little while as they aren't quite a year old just yet.

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Hmm I got a pewter tessera for 20... so a normal for 1000 there must have been more under the surface IE Hets..
 
Ravenessa said:
Hmm I got a pewter tessera for 20... so a normal for 1000 there must have been more under the surface IE Hets..
Click to expand...

I doubt it. I think the seller was just either very misguided/naive or was trying to scam a uneducated buyer. I didn't see that snake sell. Especially since a few boths over there were a few amel tesseras for sale for 100 or 200 or something in between there. The $1000 price tag is just what initially caught my SO's eye. ;) I told him it was a ridiculous and unrealistic price.
 
I don't know when I will be able to be in the position to start breeding but the way I see it, is this. The two recurring expenses are food and bedding. I think I would go about a small operation by raising my own mice on homegrown food and breeding the corns on a pad type substrate. This leaves only my labor and electric costs in addition to initial equipment and livestock costs. I would be interested in doing this to supplement my retirement income. I think the way to go, for me, would be to keep it small enough to handle easily and not need to sell tons of corns.
 
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