Proposal regarding hybrids / pure corns

[Isoldael]

Proposal

To define a definition of a pure corn that can be checked and regulated.

Reason for proposal

Whether or not a snake is a hybrid is obviously a very big deal for some people. At the moment, though, we have no way to check if a corn snake is completely pure. Who is to say that one of your snake's ancestors didn't breed with another species at some point, however many generations ago? What do we even define as a hybrid? Is a snake a hybrid even if the last hybridization was 500 generations ago? What makes a corn pure? Note that this proposal was mainly sparked by a discussion we had on a facebook group - personally, I have no known hybrids nor do I intend to ever sell known hybrids as pure.

What will this proposal accomplish?

Hopefully, we will be able to eliminate some of the uncertainty people seem to have when buying from certain breeders. People will be able to say they sell pure corns and will be able to back it up with actual data instead of having people have to take their word for it. Snakes with a proven "pure" lineage might make the seller some more money and people who are completely against breeding hybrids will be able to buy only pure corns. This should entice people to register their snakes, giving us better insight in lineage.

What we need to do to make this work

1) Set a definition for pure corn snakes. To do this, we could look at the definitions of pure species / breeds that are currently in use. For most species or breeds, the definitions are along the lines of "If animal x has only been bred to pure animals of the same species/breed for y generations and displays a, b and c traits, the animal is regarded as pure". For the rest of this proposal, I'll use this definition.
2) Determine how many generations would eliminate a significant part of any hybrid influence a snake might have and make it virtually indistinguishable from "pure" corns.
3) Determine what we consider to be "pure" traits and decide how many of these a corn should display to be considered pure (if all the traits were required, we could never introduce any new morph, for instance, if we included known patterns as a trait, the tessera morph could never have been considered pure)
4) Assume that all snakes of which we don't know if they have had other species / hybrids in their lineage and that match the traits decided in step 3 are not hybrids. We need a base to start off with - as we cannot prove or disprove whether or not snakes had any hybridization in their lineage, we'll have to start this based off an assumption.
5) Have a world-wide database where people can enter their breeding data (snake id, parents, genetics, traits, etc.) to create an overview of the lineage of all snakes from the moment the database is opened.


I realize that this would take years upon years upon years to set up, but judging from all the discussions regarding morphs and people questioning their purity, this is a big deal for many people.

I'd love to hear what you guys think of setting up such a definition / database (I'm aware that some of these are already in use, although I haven't yet heard of a global one). If enough people agree, I hope we can set up a definition together using all the combined knowledge of any corn snake keeper who wishes to share it

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

You might also want to consider dna testing of all said progeny. This is already done with some serious dog breeders. Dna eliminates any ambiguity as to the parents later on down the road.

 

[Isoldael]

DNA might be considered for the more expensive morphs, but personally I don't see people paying for expensive DNA tests for morphs that won't bring in enough cash to cover the test.

 

[SnakeAround]

I think the ACR database is good start for this. I think this would be an awesome project for people who do not get upset with the idea that somewhere in the dark ages their snakes might have an ancestor that is not 100% the same subspecies. For those people who are, it is pointless. I think it might end up anyway in people using different definitions. The easy ones would use the standard one, the less easier one might add something to the definition to be willing to call a corn pure. So, practically seen I think it would not change a lot, except that a breeder can refer to a standard to start from.
By the way, shouldn't w also look at how pure the off spring of a certain snake is to label it? A snake can look pure itself, yet produce some animals with suspicious looks. I think any corn that would be labeled as pure itself by the standard, but produces animals that would not, should not be considered a pure corn itself.

 

[MindsEyeExotics]

I think more people should start using the ACR..there aren't really that many snakes registered there..or other registrys..like the lamprolines.com or royalpedigrees.com I don't see why that hasn't caught on really..I definitely plan on registering all my babies

 

[Alli_Draggy]

I would think the answer would be do do what cat and dog breeders do-keep records and register specific lines so you know what the snake's parents, grandparents, etc were. If you're buying a pet, it doesn't matter, but if you're breeding, it does. And even pet quality "pedigreed" dogs and cats are worth more than ones without that history, so I expect the same would happen for snakes-that an "Anery het amel" with papers would be worth more than just a cute little anery at a pet store without any history/background.

 

[dave partington]

Many of the snakes registered on the ACR come from unknown ancestry. They were not all wild-collected with witnesses. I agree in principle it would be wonderful if everybody used it. Perhaps for a hobby breeder with a relatively small number of hatchlings produced each year it is practical. Each baby is registered, photographed, uploaded, saved. If an individual has the time to do this, great.
Should every single hatchling be registered? What happens when a registered snake goes to a new home? Then the records need to be updated. I have snakes which still show as being in the ownership of the last person who was working with them, or the person before. If someone's interests change, and they no longer have an interest in corns, or some other real life situation happens to them which prevents them from updating, then what?
How much does a DNA test cost? Looks like around $60. to $100, for dogs. Each.
Assuming testing snakes would cost the same.... I don't have $36,000 to $60,000 just laying around.
Colubrids of North America share much common ancestry. Is it likely they may already contain many of the same individual genes or strands of genetic code.
If it turns out so, this may be very upsetting. When strands of code in fruitflies were found in the human geonome, it caused a little stir. Hopefully in my lifetime there will be a 'home dna test kit' available at the drugstore.
I think it's worth exploring.
Thanks for sharing.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

When speaking about such large numbers and cost associated with dna testing I agree with you Dave, in that it can be cost prohibitive. Testing individual parents though would not be so bad. Anyone wanting to verify their particular dna of their pedigree snake so to speak would then only have to test their own snakes dna agains the dna you would have on file from your breeders. No need to dna test every snake as not all snakes are worthy of breeding from any given cross as only the best are kept as breeders. Just my two cents, but the burden of testing only on those snakes that were used to breed.

 

[Isoldael]

Thanks for the input so far, guys! Just wanted to bring to your attention that the main proposal isn't the database, but us defining what's pure and what's not.

I definitely would LOVE to have DNA tests for most of the snakes, but as said above, that likely wouldn't be very cost-effective

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

No, its not cost effective to dna test all snakes, but dna testing breeders and even one baby out of a batch would help ensure hybrid or unknown genes didn't get mixed into the fray unknowingly. If you were in question about your particular snake, you as an individual would then have the option of dna testing against the breeders dna to prove out its pedigree as it were before you bred your snakes. This is the only way to be 100%. Anything less than that and your simply taking someone at their word and while they may mean well.... you get the idea... ultra, tessera, etc. type debates....

 

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Keep in mind DNA tests are not always accurate. They can only provide a generalization, at least with dog breeds.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

Paternity testing is 99.99% accurate to my knowlege. Now, when you go further than parents... i.e. trying to prove longer distance relationships that % drops drastically. I'm simply proposing that once a given snake is deemed pure by the powers that be... that dna testing is done on those breeders to ensure paternity.

 

[jkgeorge]

I'm just curious what the purity of corn snakes means to those involved with this discussion. I like pure line animals, and I know why, how about everybody else? How do you choose which morphs to keep? If it were the most amazing looking morph ever produced and you knew it had king snake lineage 50 generations back would you want one? Would you keep and breed them? Would you like them any less?
First, let me say that I'm a milk snake and king snake fan, especially locality specific animals. I know several that have posted here are too. Some south of the border kings and milks are becoming very muddled and since no new animals can be transported into the country it is imperative to some breeders to maintain pure lines. Typically with those type animals there are no or very few morphs. The lines seem to get even fuzzier as well with milks as the crosses are on the sub-species level.
I know Okeetees and Miamis started out as locality morphs. It just seems that so many of the morphs are so far removed from anything seen in the wild that the concern of hybridization generations ago seems like a strange worry. I also realize that the basis of the morphs started from wild caught animals. But generations of line breeding and selection have really changed them. It seems that there would definitely be difficulties in maintaining pure lines and keeping track of lineages with so many breeders producing so many snakes.
I DO think that if a breeder/keeper knows that there is a chance that the offspring aren't pure that they should disclose that information.
I have seen several occasions on other forums where people have purchased milk snakes thinking they had a certain sub-species when in fact they didn't or had a mix of some kind. It would be very frustrating to find out our new snake is not what you wanted or thought you were getting. When you are trying to maintain a line of animals that can't be obtained anymore then it really becomes serious.

That said, I am all for pure lines of animals and locality animals. I know there are breeders out there that keep and breed locality corns. I would be happy to see more of that in the hobby. They may not be as bright, or pink, or het for anything, but to me it's hard to beat wild-type animals.

Just wanted to share my opinion,
and see what everyone else thought.

 

[Isoldael]

I DO think that if a breeder/keeper knows that there is a chance that the offspring aren't pure that they should disclose that information.

The problem is that there is ALWAYS a chance that the offspring isn't pure, even from wild-caught animals. That's kind of the problem at the moment... we have no definition for pure. Is a wild caught corn still pure if it bred with a grey rat snake a few generations ago?

 

[jkgeorge]

The problem is that there is ALWAYS a chance that the offspring isn't pure, even from wild-caught animals.

If this is true, then there is no need to worry about it, LOL.

I'm not sure how often corns mate with other rat snakes, but it would seem to me that if it were common, the species would no longer be distinct, or there would be obvious intergrades in the overlap areas. This would indicate that the species of rat snakes are actually sub-species, as seen in milk snakes.

 

[SnakeAround]

That is something specifically the more extreme anti hybrid people try to ignore or they found a logic to deal with it. The latter do acknowledge snakes do hybridize in natural situations, but do not worry about any naturally brought in genes, yet if replicated in artifical living situations, e.g. the breeding situations of any breeder involved, they consider it a threat to say the least. So, wild caught is seen as pure if it looks pure, no discussion possible but captive bred snakes are suspicious until proven pure. I can't wrap my head around this....

 

[jkgeorge]

Well, to be honest, I fall into the anti-hybrid group. My view is this.... if it happens in nature then it is part of that animals natural genetic makeup. Evolution and speciation are continuous. If corns naturally hybridize then I would assume they have been doing that for a very long time, meaning that it is a component that essentially makes corn snakes what they are.
I hope we don't get so paranoid that we can no longer trust nature.

 

[Carpe Serpentis]

The truth of the matter for me is that there is no such thing as 100% pure. Its like saying I'm 100% American or I'm from the local of Mass. Then, one discovers I'm actually an intergrade between a northern specimen and a southern specimen. One goes back further and further and now we discover that some ancestors were from England and others even further back from Spain. I see the exact same thing when we talk about snakes that are related enough to breed or that have not evolved away from a common ancestor enough to not breed as the case may be.

 

[Isoldael]

So how about we start marking our snakes as "pure bred for 10 generations" or so? You're not claiming that the lineage is completely pure then (as we can't possibly prove that), but you're just going as far back as you can prove.

 

[Isoldael]

Oh, forgot to add - I know there's no such thing as actually proving it as you could fake entries in any database too, but we can try to check it as much as we can anyway.