recessive x recessive?

[Dude123]

What happens when 2 recessive morphs are mated, say caramel and snow. Would there be a more recessive recessive gene and a more dominant recessive gene? Co domenant genes?

thanks

 

[J_Daniels]

You would actually get 100% normal corns with various Hets (or double hets...)from breeding recessives.

In the example you gave, you'd get 100% normals, het for Butter and Het for Anerytherism.

JCD

 

[Dude123]

cool. Thanks for the info. Planning on getting my first corn, and may try breeding them. Doesnt sound like a bad combo, anerys and butters are pretty nice

 

[J_Daniels]

Keep in mind though, that those babies are just Hets , you wouldn't star to see hatchlings of those morphs until breeding the het's together, or back to the parent.

In any case, if you buy hatchlings now, you're looking at 4-6 years easy before you see the butters, etc.

JCD

 

[Dude123]

ya they would require breeding to each other or parents and it will take a while. More time to learn about them then.

 

[Hurley]

Crossing a caramel and a snow would at least give you a good shot of some fun things popping out in the second generation...first generation het for amel, anery, and caramel (and therefore capable of producing amels, anerys, caramels, snows, and butters as well as normals in the second generation).

In my opinion, if you are wanting to breed for a selection of morphs, I'd go with something like a butter and a normal het butter (i.e. het for both caramel and amel).

That cross would give you 25% normals (known het butter), 25% amels (het butter), 25% caramels (het butter), and 25% butters (= 1:1:1:1 ratio).

Better odds and time than waiting 2 generations to pop out a ratio of 9 normals (with a 67% chance of being het for amel and 67% het caramel), 3 amels (only 67% het caramel), 3 caramels (67% het amel), and 1 butter (9:3:3:1) when crossing a caramel to an amel, for instance.

Advantages to the first cross = less time to goal, better odds of getting desirable morphs, and (most importantly to me) KNOWN hets of the offspring, so should you sell them, you can sell them with authority, knowing they are het for amel and caramel if not expressing them.

Taking it a step further, lets say I wanted the most variety for my money and I liked ghost motleys. If I bred a ghost motley to a normal het ghost motley, I'd get an even ratio of:
normals,
hypos,
anerys,
ghosts,
motleys,
hypo motleys,
anery motleys,
and ghost motleys.

If I really liked motleys, but wanted different kinds, maybe I'd breed a ghost motley to a motley het ghost and get even ratios of motleys, anery mots, hypo mots, and ghost mots all known het for anery and hypo (if not expressing the traits).

Lots and lots of ways to go, but a little planning will get you where you want to go quicker and with a bit better results (hopefully).

There are several breeders with animals that are known het for certain genes. If you pair up a couple wisely, you could get some nice variation in the first generation. For variety, I prefer the mutant x het for mutant cross. That gives you even odds on the morphs instead of the overwhelming numbers of normals gained when crossing F1's from a mutant x other mutant cross. Butters, amels het for butter, heck even anerys het caramel are available if you ask around. Otherwise, if you like to "mix your own", get what you like and play. That's how I got hooked.

 

[Dude123]

Thanks for the great info. If I do breed them, I may end up going with the playing on my own route One questions, how can you determine exactley what each of the normal hatchlings of a cross, say the caramel and snow again, would be het for. Is the only sure way to breed back to a parent and see what the outcome is?

 

[Hurley]

How can you determine exactley what each of the normal hatchlings of a cross, say the caramel and snow again, would be het for. Is the only sure way to breed back to a parent and see what the outcome is?

There are only 3 possibilities concerning each individual trait in each parent.

1) If the parent IS a mutant, then it carries both copies of the mutant gene and can only pass that mutant gene on to its offspring.

===> All babies will be at least het for the trait.

2) If the parent is HET for the mutant (heterozygous) carries one normal gene and one mutant gene, so half the time it'll throw the mutant gene and half the time it'll throw the normal gene to its offspring.

===> Half the babies will get the gene from this parent, half won't.

3) If the parent does not carry or express the gene, it can not throw the gene to its offspring.

===> All babies will at MOST be het, never expressing the gene if both parents aren't gene carriers. Babies will not get mutant gene from this parent.


These 3 rules go for each parent.

Lets talk about one gene for now. How about caramel, for grins. Possible crosses involving this gene:

*Caramel x caramel = 100% Caramels
*Caramel x het caramel = 50% Caramels, 50% Normals 100% het for caramel
*Caramel x normal non-het = 100% Normals definitely het caramel
*Het caramel x het caramel = 25% Caramels, 75% Normals (with 67% chance of being het caramel)
*Het caramel x normal non-het = 100% Normals (with 50% chance of being het caramel)
*Normal non-het x normal non het = 100% Normals (non-het)

Each parent either carries 0, 1, or both copies of the gene, so there are only these 6 possibilities for each individual recessive mutation.

If you want KNOWN hets without having to test breed to find the answer, then stick with the crosses producing known hets. As you can see, this pretty much means you have to have one parent that IS the mutant to know for sure. (or that neither parent carries the gene...then you know for sure they aren't het, lol)

Otherwise you are working with percentages.

Het (Aa) x Het (Aa) = 4 possibilities, aa (mutant), aA and Aa (hets), and AA (non-het).

===> 1/4 (25%) mutants, 3/4 (75%) normals,
of those 3 normals, 2 should be het, so the normals have a 2/3 chance of being het = 67%.

Het (Aa) x Non-het (AA) = AA, AA, aA, aA

===> 2/4 (50%) Non-hets, 2/4 (50%) Hets. All appear normal, so each has a 50% chance of being het for the trait and the only way to know is to test cross them to a known carrier or mutant.


In your example of snow x caramel, you are working with 3 traits (amel, anery, caramel).

If you breed the snow (amel + anery) to a caramel, all offspring should be normal (if neither parents carry any hets) and all will definitely be het for amel and anery (from the snow) and caramel (from the caramel).

Breeding your normals het for amel, anery, and caramel together would be expected to give you:

27/64 Normals (67% het amel, anery, and/or caramel)
9/64 Amels (67% het anery and/or caramel)
9/64 Anerys (67% het amel and/or caramel)
9/64 Caramels (67% het amel and/or anery)
3/64 Snows (67% het caramel)
3/64 Butters (67% het anery)
and the monkey wrench:
3/64 Anery caramels (67% het amel) == anery masks caramels, so these are expected to look just like anerys even though they are also caramels.
1/64 Butter anerys == again, anery masks caramel, so they should look like regular snows, more or less. Undistinguishable from regular snows.

Because of masking, you would expect:
27/64 Normals
9/64 Amels
12/64 Anerys (25% homozygous for caramel/50% het caramel)
(i.e. 75% chance that it AT LEAST carries caramel)
4/64 Snows (25% homo caramel/50% het caramel)
3/64 Butters

in the second generation crossing your F1 hets for snow and caramel.

FYI here's a link where this cross was discussed:
Discussion of anery and caramel masking


***Disclaimer: Didn't have time to proof this, I'll check it over tonight.

 

[Dude123]

Thanks again. Thats some great stuff, the normal crosses are a little over my head, but reading it a few times should help. Good thing I took biology thise year

 

[phillyroc]

i am starting to understand

thanks that is alot of help... i am starting to learn... just keep your ears and eyes open....

thanks again

rocco