Reptile euthanasia discussion

[Chip]

Nanci's forum has some great links on reptile euthanasia, but it is closed for discussion -and for good reason. It is a controversial topic and people get as heated talking about this as hybrids and venomoids. But it is something that comes up when you keep animals. With old corn snakes, they seem to lose muscle mass and have a hard time digesting. With lots of small meals, you can nurse them along for a while, but then they get to the point that they regurge almost anything eaten.

I have euthanized many reptiles by either feeding them to another reptile (for babies) or fridge to freezer, but veterinary papers suggest that the formation of ice crystals in the tissue may be painful. Here are some links Nanci provided:

large document

Short article with citations (though it is from Melissa Kaplan, who is an animal's rights anti-reptile keeping nut)

A very specific document

What disturbed me most was from the Warrick paper:

rapid destruction of the brain does extinguish responses usually thought to indicate consciousness. There is,however, a remarkably intact set of somatic responses to stimuli long continued body movements, foot withdrawals in response to toe pinching, etc., as well as continued heartbeat in many cases for hours following brain destruction.

So smash their heads, but their (even headless) body can still feel everything for hours? I'm starting to wonder if there even is a good method.

I bring this up now because one of my favorite old hognose girls is dying. Vet check showed no parasites or pathogens, and the my vet herself said in her opinion, the injection they would give in the stomach wall was painful. She has to be put down soon or she will simply waste away, which can only be less humane than anything relatively quick.

I once heard Penn Jillette say that he didn't care how he died. In fact, he joked that he would just as soon die in a fire as in his sleep -it's just a few minutes of panic and pain, your lifetime is probably going to be 40 million minutes, so make the most of some of those. Neat concept, but I simply can't subscribe to that at all.

Our reptiles are going to get old and die. Most of them will decline in health and either need to be euthanized or allowed to waste away. I can only think that even a short painful death would be preferable to that, and many of us will need to end the lives of our pets. So, if we can have a level headed discussion, I would like to.

 

[carriecat2]

Chip, sorry about your hognose. As pet owners, end of life care is a necessary topic for consideration. I didn't realize there's no good euthanasia method for snakes ...

As I just got our first snake less than two weeks ago, I don't know anything about snake's biology. Would lower the temperature to hibernation and then CO2 be more humane? I don't know if CO2 is a more comfortable way to go, or a snake nearing it's end would hibernate, and whether you can actually transport the said snake to the doctor without waking it ... With cats, they first give an injection to relax everything, at that point the cat is not feeling much, would some sort of sleeping gas in a sealed box do the same to snake? And then follow it with the injection to stomach, as long as the snake doesn't really feel it by then ...

 

[daddio207]

Chip, I read that article awhile ago and it also left me wondering if there is a humane way to euthanize a reptile..............


"So smash their heads, but their (even headless) body can still feel everything for hours? I'm starting to wonder if there even is a good method."
I could NOT do it but for sake of discussion, smashing their head/brains then immediate decapitation would stop signals to the brain so the body's nerves might still be active but there would be no pain since it is processed in the brain.

Personally and recommended by a veterinarian, I would euthanize with dry ice/CO2 (controlled atmosphere killing) and let my ignorance of the reptiles nervous system comfort me in thinking that the reptile went peacefully. It's been decades since using this method though.

Hope you find peace in letting her go.....

 

[Chip]

Well, she died last night or this morning. I didn't have to do anything about it, but in retrospect wish I would have. She was skin and bones, and had a row of undeveloped eggs, even though she hadn't bred in years. I can only think that sooner would have been more humane.

As for CO2, it simply doesn't seem to work on snakes. I tried years ago on a rescue ball that had been chewed by its food, and an hour later it was still living. A mouse would would last about a minute in the chamber. Intuitively, fridge to freezer "seems" most humane, but there are many against that method. I am not bashing my snake's head with a hammer, though.

 

[carriecat2]

Sorry about your hognose, at least it wasn't too drawn out.

How much does a snake feel when its body temperature is lowered to fridge temperature? I understand ice crystal forming would be painful, however, if the snake is in "deep sleep", maybe it won't feel the pain ...

 

[Chip]

That's been my thinking.

 

[Nanci]

Snakes are ectotherms. They are heated from outside. They are designed to be able to operate in low temperatures. When the temperature gets too low, they can no longer move, but they are still conscious. Have you ever had a body part get cold, too cold, start to freeze, get frost bite? It hurts like H. Cooling/freezing snakes to kill them, although convenient, is inhumane.

Freezing is only a humane option if the snake has been anesthetized first.

Why, just because it is a reptile, would you think it's okay to kill a conscious animal, slowly? You sure wouldn't think it was okay if it was a bear, or any other mammal that hibernates...And cold snakes aren't even that deeply asleep!

 

[carriecat2]

Thanks Nanci for the information, I didn't realize that. I thought when the temperature is really low, snake's body actually really shutdown, and they don't feel much at all.

After reading the article you provided, it seems injection at the vet is suppose to be least painful. I think that's the way I will go when the time comes (hopefully many many years from now) ...

 

[TyeW]

I have spoken with biologists that recommended décapitation and cranial dislocation, as well as freezing.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

The circle of life method (feeding to another snake) - for me at least this way the snakes' death is serving a purpose, I was just thinking about a recent post here on cs where a member asked for nonfeeders/problem eaters and another member donated a clutch of het stargazers, that went to feeding cobras I think?

:sidestep:

 

[Nanci]

If you read the articles, you would see which methods are humane, and which are not, and why.

Circle of Life method seems fitting for hatchlings who aren't going to make it, (it's over VERY fast) but I couldn't do that with a pet adult.

 

[Chip]

After reading the article you provided, it seems injection at the vet is suppose to be least painful. I think that's the way I will go when the time comes (hopefully many many years from now) ...

According to my vet, the shot is administered deep into the body wall, and in her opinion, is painful and the snake writhes as if in agony. Is it? Hard to truly gauge. I also believe that it's hard to gauge if freezing a dormant reptile is painful. In none of the articles do they explain their methodology, which the most important part. In fact, they don't touch on it, they simply make that statement with no citations. All I said through reading those was, "please tell me how you gathered that data," and "Why do you say that?" And a lot of qualifiers were used. I am not convinced that freezing is inhumane, nor am I a believer that it is the best method. I would very much like to know, but if smashing the head with a hammer should be called for -sorry I'm just not doing that to my pets. Like Nanci said, as endotherms with high metabolisms and lots of blood pumping through the body, mammals simply work very differently. And are easier to humanely end the lives of.

I still tend to think that there's a perfect temperature just above freezing that would stop their heart, if the formation of ice crystals in the tissue is indeed the part that causes pain.

 

[hypnoctopus]

Well, it seems like all of these methods are inhumane. Maybe just letting them waste away is the best option (for adults - I'm okay with feeding babies to other snakes). None of my snakes are very old yet, so hopefully I won't have to figure it out for a while.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Why is the prolonged pain and suffering from letting something live and waste away somehow better than the pain and suffering it feels whilst freezing or having its head crushed or being decapitated? At least these do not last for days as the animal lingers clinging to life.
The fact we care so much is what makes us good pet owners. I try to put in perspective how many people feel nothing or kill snakes on purpose (aiming their cars at snakes in the road or taking a garden shovel and whacking them- we all know or have heard of people who do this because they hate snakes.)
I've crushed a snakes' head before, not one of mine but one I found that had been run over by a car. It wasn't going to live and I ended its life so it wouldn't suffer anymore. I don't know if I could do that to one of my own though.
Fridge to freezer used to be a more accepted method when I got into this hobby. I've done it in the past and think I would still prefer that to watching something be in agony for days instead of minutes.

 

[colton62]

I think decapitation is the most humane in my opinion. Don't know if I could do it do a snake but it seems instant


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[daddio207]

I came across this answer on iHerp.

Just reposting. I have no knowledge if any is factual.




"Dear Ice,
You are very correct: Chilling a herp to death is an awful way to die, and, could they speak, they would describe it as torture. The American Veterinary Medical Association and the American Association of Zoological Veterinarians classify this as cruel treatment of animals and animal abuse and the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians categorize it as an unacceptable method of euthanasia, as well. If a veterinarian recommended this to you, it could be categorized as malpractice.

Unfortunately, the myth that freezing herps is a good way to put them down persists. It almost makes sense, being that reptiles and amphibians are “cold-blooded”, but in fact, this adaptation makes this procedure even worse for them. This is because as they get cold, they become torporous, that is, alert mentally but unable to move or respond. This is in contrast to mammals, which become unable to move, but also become mentally dull and comatose as they become hypothermic. As a result, reptiles and amphibians can feel their body get cold, which produces pain, but they can do nothing about it. Studies show that they can, literally, feel their cells freeze and rupture as they get further chilled, sensing pain as intensely as if they were being burned alive, but unable to move or respond.

What defines an acceptable method of euthanasia? Simply put, it must be a method that provides a safe, painless form of death. Additionally, it should be quick and effective, not allowing the animal to suffer either mentally or physically. The most common and accepted form is a single intravenous injection of sodium pentobarbital, an anesthetic drug that when given at an overdose amount, stops the brain, heart and lungs. Alternative methods include rapid decapitation (this must take less than 1/10 of a second to be painless, such as with a cleaver or sharp axe), pithing, or exsanguination. The latter two of these require pre-euthanasia anesthesia to prevent suffering, and it is recommended for the first, as well.

In summary, cooling or freezing reptiles and amphibians to kill them is unacceptable, cruel and painful. I cannot recommend or advocate it, and I would like very much to eliminate this technique from all herpers’ vocabulary, for the sake and respect of the animals.
Happy herping,

Adolf Maas, DVM"

http://www.iherp.com/Answers/ReptileProblem.aspx?Id=15557

 

[Nanci]

According to my vet, the shot is administered deep into the body wall, and in her opinion, is painful and the snake writhes as if in agony. Is it? Hard to truly gauge. I also believe that it's hard to gauge if freezing a dormant reptile is painful. In none of the articles do they explain their methodology, which the most important part. In fact, they don't touch on it, they simply make that statement with no citations. All I said through reading those was, "please tell me how you gathered that data," and "Why do you say that?" And a lot of qualifiers were used. I am not convinced that freezing is inhumane, nor am I a believer that it is the best method. I would very much like to know, but if smashing the head with a hammer should be called for -sorry I'm just not doing that to my pets. Like Nanci said, as endotherms with high metabolisms and lots of blood pumping through the body, mammals simply work very differently. And are easier to humanely end the lives of.

I still tend to think that there's a perfect temperature just above freezing that would stop their heart, if the formation of ice crystals in the tissue is indeed the part that causes pain.

That's why the snake needs to be anesthetized first. I think Elle took a snake in for euth once and the vet did a heart stick and the snake did writhe in pain and it was horrible.

I have only told this story to a few people, because it is just too disturbing. A few weeks ago I came across a cornsnake that had been hit by a car. I ran to get it- and its back was broken, clean through, in a dozen places. It was also disemboweled. However, it was still sitting up and striking at me and trying to run away. I picked her up and cuddled her to me and drove a mile home. I put her in a pillowcase and smashed her head. And cried my eyes out. And buried her. There was simply no other choice. I'm sure most people might have simply moved her to the side of the road and let nature take its course.

Now can you imagine if I had put that snake into the fridge, and into the freezer, how long she would have been in pain before finally dying?

No, I couldn't do that with a pet. So I'll have to take pet snakes to the vet, which fortunately won't be in such an emergency situation.

 

[cguarino30]

I've never tried this with a reptile, but I know a very fast and relatively painless way to kill mice using hypothermia is to dip them in ice water. It literally takes only a few seconds before they lose consciousness, and while I'm sure those few seconds are somewhat uncomfortable, I'd rather feel the shock of freezing cold water for a few seconds than the slow, persistent decline of cold air over the course of a few hours. I would assume the principles would apply just as well to reptiles, though I have yet to try it myself.

 

[Nanci]

I think decapitation is the most humane in my opinion. Don't know if I could do it do a snake but it seems instant


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It's not humane for reptiles, because the brain stays awake too long. That is what is so horrifying and cruel about rattlesnake roundups- the snakes are decapitated and then everyone laughs and marvels about how the head continues to try to bite.

The only humane way for reptiles, to physically kill them, is by instantly rendering the brain dead and non-functional. Smash with a hammer, captive bolt, gunshot.

Even the killing of invasive pythons in Florida is governed by these rules.

 

[Chip]

Looking at the iherp quote, I see another link with 0 methodology. It's almost as if one DVM made that declaration and now it's being regurgitated throughout the veterinary community. I feel like I'm in church again. Everyone says "These are the facts, these are the facts, it says so right in this book," yet the book is oddly free of evidence or method. And Adolf Maas suggests decapitation over freezing. I've seen more than one decapitated snake in my lifetime, and you will never convince me that that method is remotely humane.

My problem is this: reptiles haven't been studied enough as pets. They don't generate a fraction of the income for vets that dogs and cats do, and profits motivate research and development. Would anyone be shocked if the study of reptile physiology was 100 years behind that of mammals? I wouldn't, in fact, I'd say we're even more in the dark ages than a mere century. Let's look at human medicine a century ago: Lobotomies were used on mental patients, mercury therapy (using a highly toxic substance for healing) and heroin based cough syrups were given to children. Not sure blood-letting wasn't still around. I'm not convinced we're much beyond that in reptile medicine.

Purely anecdotal, but I have never opened a freezer and found an animal that appeared to have been writhing or in torqued shape at death, which is more than I can say for pulling open a drawer and finding a dead snake of natural causes. I've even had a dead snake biting its own side. This doesn't mean that every snake put in a freezer didn't suffer, I am simply saying that the death process isn't always nice naturally. If you said I either had to put my favorite snake down via fridge to freezer or vet shot, I would go with the former every time.

I wonder what anesthetizing agents are available, and if any can be administered without sticking them? I also wonder if there is not a slightly above-freezing temp that would stop a snake's heart but not be cold enough for the formation of ice crystals in the tissue, since that is what they claim to be painful.