Snake Intelligence

[HaggasCheff]

How smart are snakes? Do they remember? I read somewhere that they are approximately as smart as a fish. I read on this forum about snakes approaching glass, crawling to the top when main handler comes in, or retreating at the presence of an unknown person.

When I watch my snakes eat, I wonder why, once the food is killed, they don't stretch their mouse out neatly and start head on with the nose consistently. Sometimes they try to eat from the side of the neck or mid body and fold the mouse. Sometimes from the rear. How visual are they? Are they relying more on scent/taste to orient to the head? When I hold one and it calms down and rests on my arm or whatever, then I touch it again, it gets nervous all over. Shouldn't they learn after a while that I am not going to eat them?! That I am the source of their well-being? Their protector? Or does this take years?

I have a captive born Sinaloan Milksnake and a wild caught "Greenish" Rat Snake (E. O. Quadrivittata x E. O. Obsoleta). The Rat seems much more alert and intelligent. Possibly partially because of the more defined eyes, and he also acts more inquisitive. I had an Indigo Snake from my 10th to 17th year. That snake was always docile, but it never seemed to really get to know me versus anyone else.

I'm wondering because I want to know if they will ever truly get to know me and also if they will learn and remember thus leading to an escape at some point in the future. (Do they learn the routine of the house, remember that the lid comes off, remember a weak spot, etc.)


Maybe this is too in-depth for the forum, if you have any good book suggestions, I'd love to hear it.

 

[tschofie]

Not at all!

Not at all too in-depth, I'm sure you'll get lots of replies. Everyone loves to talk about their babies.

/How smart are snakes? Do they remember? I read
/somewhere that they are approximately as smart
/as a fish.
I was under the impression that most small fish have a memory span of about six seconds. I know snakes are smarter than that! I suspect it very much depends on the snake in question, because I know of one trial where a man got a black racer to follow him all around the house, including up and down ladders. (very slowly, but still.) On the other hand, one of my snakes seems largely interested in getting as far away from me as possible at all times, which I suppose is another form of intelligence.

/I read on this forum about snakes approaching glass,
/crawling to the top when main handler comes in, or
/retreating at the presence of an unknown person.
I know that snakes often like to watch people move around. Both mine stick their heads out and just watch, if they're pretty sure I'm not about to come harass them. One exceptional gentleman who frequents this list (Hi, Dr. Mike!) has a pair of snakes that keep a look-out for him, specifically.

/When I watch my snakes eat, I wonder why,
/once the food is killed, they don't stretch their mouse
/out neatly and start head on with the nose
/consistently. Sometimes they try to eat from the
/side of the neck or mid body and fold the mouse.
/Sometimes from the rear. How visual are they?
Most snakes have really poor close-up, head-on vision, and fairly poor distance vision. They can't see close things because their eyes are too wide-spaced, their binocular range starts about six inches out, I think. You've probably seen your snake tilt its head to look at you with just one eye, like a bird does. Same reason. I'd guess that a snake can't see you clearly if you're farther away than perhaps twice its body length (except in the case of King Cobras, they have *really* good eyesight for snakes.)

/Are they relying more on scent/taste to orient to the
/head?
Yep, so anyway, once a mouse is close up like that, they can't turn their heads to look at it at the same time as they try to eat it. So they're likely to start with whatever is closest at hand. Err, coil.

/When I hold one and it calms down and rests on my arm
/or whatever, then I touch it again, it gets nervous all
/over. Shouldn't they learn after a while that I am not
/going to eat them?! That I am the source of their well-
/being? Their protector? Or does this take years?
The nervous bit, well, you're so big in comparison to a snake that it probably thinks that "The Hand" is a different beast than "The Arm." After all, "The Hand" is that giant, mammal-smelly creature that wakes the snake up from naps, messes with the water bowl, rearranges the favorite climbing sticks... you get the idea. Bringing food is only a small portion of what "The Hand" does. Why should that make any bigger impression than being poked at every day?

/I have a captive born Sinaloan Milksnake and a
/wild caught "Greenish" Rat Snake (E. O.
/Quadrivittata x E. O. Obsoleta). The Rat seems much
/more alert and intelligent. Possibly partially because
/of the more defined eyes, and he also acts more
/inquisitive. I had an Indigo Snake from my 10th to
/17th year. That snake was always docile, but it never
/seemed to really get to know me versus anyone else.
I've heard that indigoes tend to be pretty smart. Thing is, there's no way to tell if it was calm and docile because it figured that it wasn't going to be eaten by any humans at all, or because it just didn't care. Since they don't tell us what they're thinking, it's hard to tell what they make of a given situation. If its any consolation, one of my snakes loves other people best. She goes to sleep in almost anyone's palm with her head resting on the underside of their wrist. Except, of course, for me. My hand, she things, is great fun to tie in knots by wrapping around my fingers so hard they curl into pretzel shapes. Sigh.

/I'm wondering because I want to know if they will ever
/truly get to know me and also if they will learn and
/remember thus leading to an escape at some point in
/the future. (Do they learn the routine of the house,
/remember that the lid comes off, remember a weak
/spot, etc.)
They almost surely remember that the lid comes off. And they seem to have an uncanny memory for escape points, too. In fact, anything to do with escaping really seems to be a strong point. (I can imagine the resume now: Major job skill -- escaping. Major computer skills -- wordperfect and escaping. Sports activities -- water polo. And escaping.)

Oh, well.

Cheers,
TS


*****

Chaos, Panic and Disorder!
My work here is done.

 

[HaggasCheff]

Thanks, TS. That helps.

Look forward to hear what others have to say as well.

I never thought about snakes perceiving "hand", "arm" "other hand" as different creatures. Good point. Since they aren't likely to use visual clues so much as smell, that would explain why they are consistently freaked when they get picked up or touched again only minutes from the last time. ( I am gentle, but try to also be decisive when handling.)

 

[nicky]

my snake sorta knows me

frst of all your post isn't to long second I kinda think different snakes have differnt personalitys like humans were all different some corns may be alert and can tell you apart from other using sent and sound and some can't. Personnaly I swear sometimes my snake mistakes me for food yikees! he'll come rite up and wack! anyway over time mayybe your corn will reconize you maybe not? who knows by the way cute pic!

 

[Iris]

TS-
Perhaps that snake who squeezes your hand really hard is really giving you love hugs! And everyone else just bores her to death so she'd rather just go to sleep. ;D

 

[billy]

Re: Not at all!

Not at all too in-depth, I'm sure you'll get lots of replies. Everyone loves to talk about their babies.

/How smart are snakes? Do they remember? I read
/somewhere that they are approximately as smart
/as a fish.
I was under the impression that most small fish have a memory span of about six seconds. I know snakes are smarter than that! I suspect it very much depends on the snake in question, because I know of one trial where a man got a black racer to follow him all around the house, including up and down ladders. (very slowly, but still.) On the other hand, one of my snakes seems largely interested in getting as far away from me as possible at all times, which I suppose is another form of intelligence.

/I read on this forum about snakes approaching glass,
/crawling to the top when main handler comes in, or
/retreating at the presence of an unknown person.
I know that snakes often like to watch people move around. Both mine stick their heads out and just watch, if they're pretty sure I'm not about to come harass them. One exceptional gentleman who frequents this list (Hi, Dr. Mike!) has a pair of snakes that keep a look-out for him, specifically.

/When I watch my snakes eat, I wonder why,
/once the food is killed, they don't stretch their mouse
/out neatly and start head on with the nose
/consistently. Sometimes they try to eat from the
/side of the neck or mid body and fold the mouse.
/Sometimes from the rear. How visual are they?
Most snakes have really poor close-up, head-on vision, and fairly poor distance vision. They can't see close things because their eyes are too wide-spaced, their binocular range starts about six inches out, I think. You've probably seen your snake tilt its head to look at you with just one eye, like a bird does. Same reason. I'd guess that a snake can't see you clearly if you're farther away than perhaps twice its body length (except in the case of King Cobras, they have *really* good eyesight for snakes.)

/Are they relying more on scent/taste to orient to the
/head?
Yep, so anyway, once a mouse is close up like that, they can't turn their heads to look at it at the same time as they try to eat it. So they're likely to start with whatever is closest at hand. Err, coil.

/When I hold one and it calms down and rests on my arm
/or whatever, then I touch it again, it gets nervous all
/over. Shouldn't they learn after a while that I am not
/going to eat them?! That I am the source of their well-
/being? Their protector? Or does this take years?
The nervous bit, well, you're so big in comparison to a snake that it probably thinks that "The Hand" is a different beast than "The Arm." After all, "The Hand" is that giant, mammal-smelly creature that wakes the snake up from naps, messes with the water bowl, rearranges the favorite climbing sticks... you get the idea. Bringing food is only a small portion of what "The Hand" does. Why should that make any bigger impression than being poked at every day?

/I have a captive born Sinaloan Milksnake and a
/wild caught "Greenish" Rat Snake (E. O.
/Quadrivittata x E. O. Obsoleta). The Rat seems much
/more alert and intelligent. Possibly partially because
/of the more defined eyes, and he also acts more
/inquisitive. I had an Indigo Snake from my 10th to
/17th year. That snake was always docile, but it never
/seemed to really get to know me versus anyone else.
I've heard that indigoes tend to be pretty smart. Thing is, there's no way to tell if it was calm and docile because it figured that it wasn't going to be eaten by any humans at all, or because it just didn't care. Since they don't tell us what they're thinking, it's hard to tell what they make of a given situation. If its any consolation, one of my snakes loves other people best. She goes to sleep in almost anyone's palm with her head resting on the underside of their wrist. Except, of course, for me. My hand, she things, is great fun to tie in knots by wrapping around my fingers so hard they curl into pretzel shapes. Sigh.

/I'm wondering because I want to know if they will ever
/truly get to know me and also if they will learn and
/remember thus leading to an escape at some point in
/the future. (Do they learn the routine of the house,
/remember that the lid comes off, remember a weak
/spot, etc.)
They almost surely remember that the lid comes off. And they seem to have an uncanny memory for escape points, too. In fact, anything to do with escaping really seems to be a strong point. (I can imagine the resume now: Major job skill -- escaping. Major computer skills -- wordperfect and escaping. Sports activities -- water polo. And escaping.)

Oh, well.

Cheers,
TS


*****

Chaos, Panic and Disorder!
My work here is done.

 

[billy]

[QOTE]Originally posted by Iris
TS-
Perhaps that snake who squeezes your hand really hard is really giving you love hugs! And everyone else just bores her to death so she'd rather just go to sleep. ;D [/QUOTE]U

thats stupid, the main aim of any organism on this earth is to repruduce with its own species and if it is able to tell the difference between another species of snake then i doubt very much the fact that your snake is attempting to court you.

 

[LizS]

Billy,
Do you know what the " " symbol means?

 

[kellum]

She was being facetious.... stupid
If YOU don't have the intellect to understand that restrict your web experience to this...

"you should feel right at home"

Have a nice day!

 

[tschofie]

Ladies, Gentlemen!

Calmly now, kidlets, ladies, and gentlemen alike. Misunderstandings, bad days, you know how they go. billy, gentle and friendly joking is quite common around here, and Iris is one seriously classy lady. No reason to insult her, nor to dare the wrath of Ye Grand List Master, who even now holds your ip addy in the palm of his mighty gauntlet.

Er, excuse me, I get carried away. So yeah, why don't you join in? Do you have snakes? Do you think they recognize you very much?

Oh, Iris. I would believe you, except... entropy acts differently around other people as well. He lets anyone with five fingers *pet his head* but me, he attempts escape from. (Another sure sign of intelligence, I tell you.)

I have noticed something about the way snakes react to different body parts, though. Both S and H think that "face" is nothing but a nice climby-thing full of places in which to cram one's tail. I can lean down and actually nuzzle either snake, and the main reaction seems to be along the lines of "yeah, so what."

Interesting, anyway. Love that pic of yours, you definately have someone there who knows full well where his cage is opened from. S/He is gorgeous, too, does the hurricane pattern go all the way along the back?

Cheers,
TS

 

[HaggasCheff]

This is the yellow/black rat intergrade, yes, that "spot" pattern does go all the way down, but it is not a complete circle like (I think) on a motley. Motleys look like miniature anacondas to me. It connects to the olivish stripes down the sides. It will probably maintain the pattern for a while. See http://www.snakesandfrogs.com/scra/snakes/images/mossrat.jpg for a pic from Gene Ott's pages. This snake is about half the size of the one in the link above.

I'm not real up on corn patterns, so I am not exactly sure what a hurricane pattern is. Reading your posts, I wish I had held out for a corn! I purchased a Sinaloan Milk a few weeks ago (pet shop was out of corns, except for one "ghost" corn), then this rat came crawling across my deck last week. Olive green, my favorite nuetral color. I had really wanted an elaphe, so was glad to see it! I would try to post some better pics for you, but since it is not a corn, will preserve Rich's bandwidth.

Wish I had gone to the Raleigh herp show with Kellum a couple weeks ago. If all continues to go well with the Sinaloan and Rat, I will likely be aquiring a corn sometime in the future. Probably will patronize Rich's snake den for that, as Kellum is stoked with his recent purchase. I forgot how cool snakes are! I had to make straight A's to get my Indigo years ago, now I can get a snake whenever I bloody well please! Sounds like as good a hobby as they come. Luckily my wife also likes them!

Can anyone recommend books about colubrid care and behavior?

It took the rat snake about 4 days to discover his hide box hole, but now he stays in it except for excursions late at night. He goes straight to the entrance when I put him back in the cage, so I reckon he remembers where it is. I have not seen him back on the rim of the cage. Maybe he figured out he could not escape that way (or just hasn't cared to crawl up there again). Signs of snake smarts or memory?

 

[Iris]

Billy...

Yeah it was a JOKE since you obviously couldn't tell despite the two winks and from the context of the statement.
You'd better watch what you say in this forum. People won't respond as nicely as I am right now to comments like "that's stupid." How bout you learn to spell first and then you can call other people stupid?
(Sorry Rich and if you have to delete this post because I'm being excessively mean I understand..but I can't stand people like this)

 

[Alicia]

Books

The Corn Snake Manual - Bill & Kathy Love
Corn Snakes and Other Rat Snakes - Bartlett and Bartlett

These are two of the books that I like.

Alicia

 

[pdrau]

Billy try using "I disagree" or "I don't understand your point of view" instead of "that's stupid." Works a lot better and you won't find yourself on the end of a barrage of flames next time. A little forum etiquette <sp> goes a long way.

Also, if any animal, specifically corn snakes, was incapable of recognizing familiar and/or safe beings then it would either take a defensive stance always or risk the possibility of being killed and/or eaten. Most vertebrates have some ability of sensing danger. For that matter, probably most "organisms."

 

[HaggasCheff]

OK, so now the ratsnake has dug his own tunnel through the bedding under the side of the hide box and pushed bedding up inside the hole I had cut in the little plastic tray. I guess he preferred a more secret entrance.

Did the snake analyze his shelter, come up with a creative and practical solution to a problem-- that made him feel more secure? Or did he just dig a hole because that's what snakes do, then in the process of coiling up inadvertantly push shavings against the original doorway?

I am going to smooth over his burrow and see what happens.

 

[Rachel]

OK two things,
1. not to get on at you billy but an organisms main aim is not always to reproduce. Maybe in some simple animals, but I dont think animals like amoebas and trypanosomes go out and think "hmm better have sex today!". we shall leave that to the males of our species ! Usually food would be of utmost importance.

2. As for snakes intelligence, I was amazed by my snake last night! She is kept in a 5ft x 3ft x 4ft (roughly) with front sliding, plexiglass doors. She has now realised that is she climbs to the top of her plant (still her favourite one!) she can stretch out to the glass, stick her tummy area on the glass and slide the doors open by pushing away from the wall with her head. Sounds complex but she has mastered it. Lucky I was watching, Ive got a stopper in the doors now to prevent another escape!
The younger snake haas also seemed to realise when feeding day is (saturday). If I run out of mice and have to wait til sunday to buy, he gets really grumpy with me on the sat and wont calm down til he's been fed. Probably just cos he's hungry but hey...it could be intelligence!

 

[kellyjones]

Billy. Chill out !!!!!

 

[flyboy4219]

genius

Are snakes the smartest reptile?

 

[Hakunum-Gutata]

Holey Snakes!

Well HaggasCheff, maybe that is just what snakes do. Make holes. I'm sure your snake isn't insecure. I bet if you watch him at night, he fashions his own entrances to the hide from all over. My corn loves to burrow, as they are burrowers. In the wild they would be most likely to find their food in holes and with a name like ratsnake, I'm pretty sure that's where they're looking, too.
Of course, I'm not trying to say that you're snake is constantly hungry. I'm sure he isn't.

All snakes are different, but I have noticed that mine is exceptionally quirky. When I first got him, I gave him plastic hides and as he got bigger I got him bigger ones along with bigger terrariums. And with every size he would burrow under and block the entrance. Sometimes he would plum flip it over. Then, when it was clear that my snake had outgrown his 10gallon tank my uncle took me terrarium upgrading shopping. He told me I could get whatever I wanted, so I went around picking out things that would last forever and most of it was suprisingly affordable. My prize pick was a hide made of a really pretty, dark polished stone. It's sturdy, wide, he can't easily knock it over. And while I know he still burrows all over, he has yet to block his entrance. I see him use it all the time. Plus, the entrance is pretty wide so he may not feel the need to make a new one all the time.

And just for the record, I find that he tends to burrow all the way to the glass bottom of the tank during the summer months and he tends bask on top of his shiny stone hide, too. I think it may keep him cool, also. That's just what I've noticed. I don't know what the weather is like in North Carolina (Please forgive me if you live in South Carolina), but over here you gotta do what you gotta do to beat the Texas heat, even if your a snake living in an air conditioned room.

But really, just pay attention to the growth of your snake. Maybe he's looking for a bigger place to sleep or he's just a curious little guy looking for adventure. But he sounds happy and healthy to me and having life handed to him buy someone like you, I'm sure the last thing he is is insecure.

Good luck to both of you!