Some "Anery C" comparisons...

[carol]

HELP!!! Alrighty I can't wait for my genetics book to get here, it is taking so long! When I breed these projects animals together (all are full siblings) I get two types of "Anery C's". I get high saddle count and normals saddle count.

Below are pics...
The first one.... a high saddle count, the second two.... normal saddle count.
The last pic is just a purdy pic of some siblings.

I have two female breeders in this project, VHead and FTwin. I also have two males, Mamma's Boy and MTwin.

Last year when I bred VHead and Mama's Boy I got the high saddle count types, this year when I bred VHead to MTwin, I got normal saddle count types. This was FTwins first year of breeding and when bred to Mamma's Boy, she also produced high saddle counts.

Up until now, it has been all or nothing, either all the anery hatchlings have high saddle count, or all of them have normal saddle count. And in clutches when I get high saddle counts, only the Anery C's in the clutch have the high count. This year I bred Mamma's Boy back to his mother (how ironic) and I got 2 high saddle count Anery C's and one normal count Anery C. :shrugs:

Any of you super smart people have a clue what is going on? Is this behaving like a Simple Recessive that only displays in an Anery C?? I'm so confused.

 

[Kat]

I'm a little confused, Carol... are these the same Anery C's that Rich is getting? Or another form of anery entirely?

I'm not aware of saddle count having anything to do with morphs...

-Kat

 

[carol]

Yes these stem from Rich's line. I am not aware of anything like this yet either, but these results have sure been interesting! It also doesn't appear that the animals Rich has posted pics of have high saddle count. Serp pointed out that all the other animals produced by this group have a saddle count of about 40, these high count Anery C's will have 50-60. But it only crops up in certain pairings and only crops up in Anery C's. :shrugs: :shrugs: :shrugs:

 

[Kat]

Interesting...

Well... I'm not aware of any genes that influence saddle count, but that doesn't mean there aren't any.

There's a possibility that the high saddle count effect is a linked trait... Then again, the one on the left of the second pic and the odd 'striped' saddle on the first snake pictured look more like patterns I've seen on obsoleta hybrids, but I'm far from an expert on those... I trust Rich's judgement better than I'd trust my own on the matter of whether a cornsnake is a hybrid or not.

-Kat

 

[carol]

Ya I agree, but one of the few things that makes it hard for me to believe they are hybrids is the fact that it acts like an all or nothing trait. These Anerys with the strange pattern look nothing like any of the "normal" hatchlings. I like Don's saying... "I'm not allergic to the idea of them being hybrids", and am open to the possiblity, but there are several reasons why "Hybrid" just doesn't make sense. I was thinking Emoryi myself, but these animals are just too red, also, none of the parents/grandparents look like hybrids so why would it show up so far down the line? Also, why am I not getting "in between" high and normal saddle count babies?? Obsoleta also tend to create animals with a high amount of yellow when crossed with corns and make large hatchlings. These guys have no yellow and are pretty small and thin like the Keys corns, nothing like the "monster" frosted babies one would see.
That being said, I should have mentioned that they do have some Upper Keys blood in them, and the ones with the "high saddle count" aslo have patternless or almost patternless bellies. It looks more like Bloodred bellies than the stark white of motley hatchling bellies though.

 

[Kat]

Dunno. Sounds like a fun trait to mess with. It'd be interesting to see if the high saddle count thing continues in future generations. Goodluck!

-Kat

 

[wikkedkornman]

maybe the saddle count just goes along with anery c, the same way as diffused goes with bloodred. i don't know why you get some with normal saddle count, but then again some bloodreds show almost no diffusion. i dunno.

one thing i do know is that the term "anery" should not apply to these snakes, since from what i've seen in pics on Rich's site, they tend to get orange/reds in their saddles. maybe they are hypoerythristic. they're not aneries though.

 

[carol]

Yep, it's confusing and I appreciate you input! You've been missed! wikkedkornman, I understand your point, but this name is not written in stone. Once this is proven out 200% we will worry about a better name. You have to admit they do look like Anerys when they are young, and I have seen many Anery A Snows with loads of color as well.

 

[kathari]

The high saddle count and lack of belly markings just make it sound like a hybrid of some sort to me to be honest... There is always loads of variations in hybrids so maybe that's a possible explanation for some of the differences that are popping up?

 

[carol]

The high saddle count and lack of belly markings just make it sound like a hybrid of some sort to me to be honest... There is always loads of variations in hybrids so maybe that's a possible explanation for some of the differences that are popping up?

Loads of variation is right, so why don't I have that? I am only seeing two distinct types, and one type only shows up in a certain "morph". I can think of a few Hybrids that would cause a high saddle count, but you included "lack of belly pattern" as another cause for suspicion. Just curious.... what Hybrids are known for having no belly pattern?

 

[carol]

What I am really curious about for those genetics people is... Can there be a simple recessive trait that will only display itself when another simple recessive is present? Or is there anyway with the info given we can see any pattern at all as to how this is inherited?? (recessive, dominant, polygenic, LOL, I think that is a word??)

 

[Kat]

Can there be a simple recessive trait that will only display itself when another simple recessive is present?

In a word, yes.

-Kat

 

[abell82]

Two words=
Emory Rat.
Colors?, high saddle count?
Emory rat.

 

[Hurley]

Heh, I'd like to see you convince Rich that those are emory rat crosses.

Also, how do you explain away the all or nothing pattern anomaly? There are no in betweeners and the whole clutch isn't even close to similar. That "snow" and the "anerys" (which aren't compatible with anery A or charcoal) have that bizarre pattern with the jagged saddle edges and high saddle counts, the non-"anery" ones are normal corn patterned.

How many clutches of rootbeers and creamsicles have you seen with a split in pattern anomaly that has one "color" morph's pattern completely altered and "emory"-looking and the non-morph's patterns totally unchanged, all in the same clutch?

Three words: Doesn't add up.

 

[Rich Z]

Heh, I'd like to see you convince Rich that those are emory rat crosses.

Also, how do you explain away the all or nothing pattern anomaly? There are no in betweeners and the whole clutch isn't even close to similar. That "snow" and the "anerys" (which aren't compatible with anery A or charcoal) have that bizarre pattern with the jagged saddle edges and high saddle counts, the non-"anery" ones are normal corn patterned.

How many clutches of rootbeers and creamsicles have you seen with a split in pattern anomaly that has one "color" morph's pattern completely altered and "emory"-looking and the non-morph's patterns totally unchanged, all in the same clutch?

Three words: Doesn't add up.

LOL! Yeah, right. Not to mention that the babies are MUCH smaller then anything I ever heard of coming from emoryi. The original animal that this line came from was a wild caught from a guy who actually lived in the Florida Keys. Yeah, he could have been lying, but I talked to the guy in person when I got the animal in trade from him, and he had nothing at all to gain by claiming it was anything other then what he said it was. He traded for a leopard gecko, so he was not trying to make some money off of it. His kid wanted a leopard gecko, and he had this corn snake for trade.

But there does seem to be a pattern lately. Anytime a new gene (or the possibility of one) crops up, some people seem to want to jump right on the "hybrid" bandwagon immediately. Kind of a curious turn of events, I think.

 

[Traci1]

But there does seem to be a pattern lately. Anytime a new gene (or the possibility of one) crops up, some people seem to want to jump right on the "hybrid" bandwagon immediately. Kind of a curious turn of events, I think.

I'm also seeing it any time an exceptionally nice example of an existing morph is posted. (esp. w/ really bright reverse okeetees - some people want to assume it's a 'jungle' corn)

But at the same time I think some people are just identifying patterns/colors with something they are already familar with, they're not necessarily saying that something new HAS to be a hybrid because it looks like ________. I may have agreed with a comment someone made when Carol first posted her new babies w/ the high saddle count. ("Looks like emoryi pattern...") but that doesn't mean I think they actually have emoryi in them. I think those who have a 'problem' with hybrids are more likely to assume a new/unfamiliar looking animal is a hybrid, rather than "pure"...whereas those of us who have NO problem with hybrids might explore the possiblity but aren't going to insist that it is or it isn't based on looks alone.

 

[carol]

LOL! Yeah, right. Not to mention that the babies are MUCH smaller then anything I ever heard of coming from emoryi.

Great point. Emoryi crosses are short and fat. These guys are long and lean. And again they are way to small to be part of anything Obsoleta. Like I said before, I am not really bothered by people wondering if they are Hybrids, but I have gone over all the scenerios in my head and it just doesn't make sense. I have kept an open mind to the possibility, but like Hurley says, Doesn't add up.

But there does seem to be a pattern lately. Anytime a new gene (or the possibility of one) crops up, some people seem to want to jump right on the "hybrid" bandwagon immediately. Kind of a curious turn of events, I think.

Ya, part of this is probably karma for me not trusting Ultras. LOL. I still think at least the two possible hets in my collection are Hybrids, but I think some Ultras may be pure. Personally, I haven't given it much more thought since lately I have only had time to deal with what is in my own snake room. :crazy02: So I understand where people are coming from and I don't mind at all discussing the issue here, but I do want people to know I have already though long and hard about a lot of possibilities, and Hybrid just doesn't make sense. But in the meantime, I like hearing other peoples ideas just in case they come up with an angle I haven't thought of yet.

 

[carol]

Out of curiousity Rich, are you seeing any kind of weird pattern traits popping up in yours?

 

[abell82]

LOL! Yeah, right. Not to mention that the babies are MUCH smaller then anything I ever heard of coming from emoryi. The original animal that this line came from was a wild caught from a guy who actually lived in the Florida Keys. Yeah, he could have been lying, but I talked to the guy in person when I got the animal in trade from him, and he had nothing at all to gain by claiming it was anything other then what he said it was. He traded for a leopard gecko, so he was not trying to make some money off of it. His kid wanted a leopard gecko, and he had this corn snake for trade.

But there does seem to be a pattern lately. Anytime a new gene (or the possibility of one) crops up, some people seem to want to jump right on the "hybrid" bandwagon immediately. Kind of a curious turn of events, I think.

:bowdown: I am just saying that it looks an awful lot like an Emory rat.

What I am not saying it has been purposely bred to deceive anyone.
And as for the ancestor being wild caught, that would have been all I needed to hear 20 years ago, but this is Florida we are talking about here, land of huricanes, and people that cast off unwanted animals. A place that now has Oscars and Paranha were there used to be none.(This is not intended as a slam on Florida..., people... maybe , but not Florida).

Heh,
How many clutches of rootbeers and creamsicles have you seen with a split in pattern anomaly that has one "color" morph's pattern completely altered and "emory"-looking and the non-morph's patterns totally unchanged, all in the same clutch?

Three words: Doesn't add up.

How many clutches of rootbeers and creamsicles have you ever seen that also had Upper keys blood in them? :cheers:
No, but seriously, isn't the Emory just a subspecies of Corn anyway? So would it not be possible to selectivly breed an Emory (look-alike) from a corn? :shrugs:

And yes I admitt it. I am a Conspiricy Theorist. "Just because I'm paranoid don't mean your not after me." :sidestep:

 

[abell82]

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1427&stc=1
A pic of one of Carol's Upper Keys Corns.
For reference. :shrugs: