Strange behavior following regurge

[Feanturi]

So our M Snow Stripe (Manwe) is having major issues. We got him, a female and a female Ghost Stripe about 5 months ago. All 3 have regurged, and been brought back to health (so we thought) after months of work. Their weight (which had dropped sharply after the initial regurges - 80g with the Ghost St.) had finally gotten back above the original weighings, and it looked like they were all getting settled in nicely. I had <assumed> this to be a parasite problem and treated with GSE - 32d/gal for 4 months. The girls are *apparently* doing well. To say I am displeased with the "reputable shop" where we got these kids is a massive understatement.

Last feeding (May15th) there was a burned out red bulb over Manwe's cage. I replaced it with a night-glo I had handy, fed the kids, did the cleaning routine: hides inspected, substrate spot checked (the fecal material is removed daily), water bowls sanitized and refilled. Everything seemed fine. Then, in the am, that ugly smell. Considering the bulb had brought the heat up overnight to 102 by the am, I figured the issue was the heat. I elevated the lamp, that brought temps back to the 84-85 range (cool side hovers between 65-72) and waited the 10 days. So I feed yesterday, he seemed very happy to get back to a small hopper - 13g (has been eating weaned around 20g) and I figured we were good. I get up this morning, and he's thrashing around and sliding backwards and coiling on himself. His tail is buzzing off and on, and he looks like he's in great pain. But no strikes - in fact he came right to my hand and calmed down a bit while being held/inspected. I'm not sure if I caught him mid-gurge or not as I saw no signs, but a bit later after I put him back down for observation I noticed there was a mouse to be removed. Whether it was already there or not I am not sure. And normally I wouldn't handle after feeding, but he really looked bad.

So my question is: is there any connection between this behavior and *shudder* crypto? I thought the hurling around could be mites, but I didn't see any. He had some dry substrate (coconut coir) under some scales, so I changed the substrate out and sanitized the tank (in fact I replaced the 20l to a 30 - he usually likes to climb). He seems better now, tunneling around. I checked him for abdominal swelling, and it doesn't look like he is bloated (I am a bodyworker - I'm usually pretty good at palpation - but this is a snake). I'd take him to the vet but it's Memorial Day, and our local herp vet isn't in. Any other observations/suggestions?

Thanks for any help. Health issues aside these are 3 very personable snakes and I am really praying to not have to put them (and the others) down.

 

[Susielea]

I've seen that exact same behaviour with a snake about to regurge, it's not pleasant but I think it's how they force the food back up

I'd personally would have gone with an even smaller meal than you are describing, perhaps a small/medium fuzzy and think about getting some Nutribac (which you dust on the food or place in the water and it helps with digestion) from Kathy Love's website, I've heard nothing but good things about it.

Hope that helps a bit,

 

[sallydog77]

I'm no expert, but I have read that when snakes have crypto the body swelling is in the advanced stages. Since you've had 3 regurge, then I'd start taking in fecal samples from all of them ASAP if you haven't already.

I've never seen a snake in the middle of a regurge before, but I have seen a leopard gecko do it and they do sort of thrash during and afterward. Maybe the same goes for snakes.

I wish I could help you more but if you've had 3 snakes regurge you need to get fecal samples done to rule out any nasty intestinal parasites. Good Luck, and keep us updated!

 

[Feanturi]

I've seen that exact same behaviour with a snake about to regurge, it's not pleasant but I think it's how they force the food back up

I'd personally would have gone with an even smaller meal than you are describing, perhaps a small/medium fuzzy and think about getting some Nutribac (which you dust on the food or place in the water and it helps with digestion) from Kathy Love's website, I've heard nothing but good things about it.

Hope that helps a bit,

Thanks, Susielea. I double checked the weight on that fuzzy; it was indeed 7g. The 13g was the weight of feed for the SnSt Female. Juggling too many numbers...:bang: I've been looking around for the Nutri-bac, nobody carries it locally. Guess I'll have to online it. Although I have to say, the snakes are doing well following the Munson diet, and with cutting the wee tasties.

And Sallydog: I am assuming there is a nasty infestation, and am treating with GSE (32d/gal, 3+months) before going nuclear with the Flagyl (the first suggestion of "the shop" :angry01. I would prefer to avoid antibiotic treatments if possible. It may be that that is no longer possible with Manwe, but I won't be able to see the Vet until tomorrow, earliest.


As far as the regurge behavior, there's an interesting (if somewhat sick & twisted example of Man's inhumanity to fellow Beings)example on Youtube. Do a search under anaconda regurges a hippo. And we'll just leave anaconda's and hippos as a possible prey item in the wild for another discussion.... That aside, it was fairly similar to his behavior, so the fingers are crossed. And scales too.

Thanks for your support.

 

[Nanci]

I think you need to find out if they have worms, which I don't believe will be treated by GSE. Every adult snake I have checked has had them. Three regurges in three snakes is pretty weird- it sure wouldn't hurt to test for crypto, either. It's better to know than risk spreading it around.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I would also suggest you ditch the heat lamps and get under tank heat pads. 102 is way hot for a corn snake as you know, and too hot temps will cause regurges just like too cold. It's just easier to get your target temp range with belly heat instead of from above since corn snakes really aren't baskers. Also are you waiting the ten days after the regurge before feeding again and then offering a smaller food item? It sounds like it from the post.
I used to live in Novato BTW! West Marin is gorgeous.

 

[sallydog77]

Ditto what Nanci said about the worms. The Flagyl should eliminate them if there are any.

 

[sallydog77]

Also, most vets use Flagyl, too.

 

[Feanturi]

I think you need to find out if they have worms, which I don't believe will be treated by GSE. Every adult snake I have checked has had them. Three regurges in three snakes is pretty weird- it sure wouldn't hurt to test for crypto, either. It's better to know than risk spreading it around.

Thanks, Nanci. I didn't know the GSE wouldn't kill off the worms. But wouldn't a snake with worms not gain weight regularly? And do you think the little boys and girls would accept mouse dipped in garlic? (Perhaps some parmesan with that Monsiuer or Madame? Perhaps a drizzle of olive oil?)

And yeah, I figure the odds are long on coincidence here.

 

[Joejr14]

GSE kills fauna in the gut. Repeated use is only going to inhibit good bacterial growth in the stomach. I'd cut that out ASAP and get some nutribac going.

 

[Nanci]

My snakes that had worms were treated with Panacur.

 

[Feanturi]

I would also suggest you ditch the heat lamps and get under tank heat pads. 102 is way hot for a corn snake as you know, and too hot temps will cause regurges just like too cold. It's just easier to get your target temp range with belly heat instead of from above since corn snakes really aren't baskers. Also are you waiting the ten days after the regurge before feeding again and then offering a smaller food item? It sounds like it from the post.
I used to live in Novato BTW! West Marin is gorgeous.

Thanks, shed'n. They have UTH's and we use the lights as supplemental heat. It gets a tad cool here of a morning, out by the Cheese Factory. Eugene's nothing to gripe about either. Very nice. And yes, protocol is being followed.

 

[Feanturi]

GSE kills fauna in the gut. Repeated use is only going to inhibit good bacterial growth in the stomach. I'd cut that out ASAP and get some nutribac going.

Thanks, Joe...

I had stopped with it once weights were re-established and after easing quarantine (I do still add 4dr/gal to inhibit water dish build-up for all the critters, should that be stopped?) but put him back on last time (11 days ago).
I'll get going on the Nutri-Bac asap.

 

[sallydog77]

My vets have used flagyl in the past to treat intestinal parasites, but not worms. Should have clarified. I was referring to the fact that vets will recommend flagyl for stomach intestinal ailments, because the OP said he only wanted to do it as a last resort. I get a fecal done on my reptiles every 6 months, and we do use the panacur as a precautionary measure for my leopard gecko.

Nutri-bac is good stuff, I used it when my leopard gecko was regurging. I just put a little in with his vitamin dust. I also had some stuff called Acidophilliz or something along those lines that was liquid and could be put into water.

Probiotics do help a lot, but if it were me I'd want a definite diagnosis from a vet as soon as I could, because the natural methods may not be enough. I'd rather take a more natural approach myself, but I doubt all the probiotics in the world will treat something like coccidia and definitely not worms. I've given probiotics with anti-biotics and de-wormers at the same time before and it has worked wonders.

Also, do you have a thermostat? That should keep help your temps in line.

 

[sallydog77]

opps i made a boo boo. I'm not thinking right today LOL.
Nanci your right it is panacur for worms and not flagyl

 

[Feanturi]

My vets have used flagyl in the past to treat intestinal parasites, but not worms. Should have clarified. I was referring to the fact that vets will recommend flagyl for stomach intestinal ailments, because the OP said he only wanted to do it as a last resort. I get a fecal done on my reptiles every 6 months, and we do use the panacur as a precautionary measure for my leopard gecko.

Nutri-bac is good stuff, I used it when my leopard gecko was regurging. I just put a little in with his vitamin dust. I also had some stuff called Acidophilliz or something along those lines that was liquid and could be put into water.

Probiotics do help a lot, but if it were me I'd want a definite diagnosis from a vet as soon as I could, because the natural methods may not be enough. I'd rather take a more natural approach myself, but I doubt all the probiotics in the world will treat something like coccidia and definitely not worms. I've given probiotics with anti-biotics and de-wormers at the same time before and it has worked wonders.

Also, do you have a thermostat? That should keep help your temps in line.

Yeah, I'd decided to stay natural as long as I could. Asuuming the situation was parasitic, as it would be the most common place to start with the GSE seemed like it was working. All three were rebounding (0.1GhStr - 182g-114g-199g(yeah, 182-114!) 0.1 SnStr - 123g-90g-160g and 1.0 SnStr(Manwe) - 136g-115g-177g-167g-?) and displaying all the good signs. Curious, interactive, no danger signs. I'll just have to take him in for a once-over and see what our local Vet says. She breeds corns, she ought to have a good clue.

I am in the finishing stages of remodeling a vintage 1975 stereo cabinet complete with tinted windows to protect little snakey eyes, and will be controlling it with a thermostat or 3. At present, all the cages are monitored regularly and all has been relatively smooth. This day was 103 outside, and the lights were all off otherwise, as I rushed out. Lessoned learned, and I'm off to modify tubs for the new Slytherin Heights. Each unit will be 2 levels, heated UTH below with a 28qt tub with Coconut Coir. The upper level will be some form of indoor-outdoor carpet, (this being Sonoma/Marin, I'm sure I can get some PC, Enviro-friendly, non-toxic remnants locally) over Polyurethane-painted Hardwood flooring for ease of clean-up. It'll house 5 snakes, each level being independently controlled. That, as they say, should solve that.

 

[Lynnea]

My snakes that had worms were treated with Panacur.

That's what my vet gave me to use, too. Also, liquid Albon for bacterial infection.

 

[sallydog77]

That sounds like a very cool set up.

Could be that your use of GSE may be keeping whatever parasites or intestinal bugs at bay but isn't totally killing them, and they all probably need a full work up and exam. Hang in there!

In addition to your thermostats, you should look into getting into a temperature gun if you don't have one already. One of these babies helped me find and replace a malfunctioning thermostat once! I was wondering why the heat mat was getting increasingly hotter, even though it was set at about 85. I temped the area of the probe and It was climbing up to 95 throughout the day. I moved the animal to another cage and continued temp-gunning the probe area, and within a day I came to conclusion that the probe just wasn't working when the heat mat got up to 110! Digital thermometers with probes are great, too, but I really like the portability the temp gun offers. I have one velcroed to the side of my leopard's viv. I bought the temp gun 2 years ago and I haven't had to replace the battery yet and I use it faithfully everyday. If I hadn't used it everyday then I wouldn't have caught the screwy thermostat. All the rest of my thermostats have been in great order and I've had them for over 3 years.

 

[sallydog77]

That's what my vet gave me to use, too. Also, liquid Albon for bacterial infection.

Was it coccidia? I tend to get confused about my drugs alot, its been a while since I looked them up, but I'm pretty sure albon is used for coccidia. Whenever my guy had bacterial infection I was given Baytril.

I really need to get back on the loop with these. I used to be really good at remembering them all but I haven't taken out my books in a while. That "Understanding Reptile Parasites" has been collecting dust, speaking of which, I need to get the new addition of.

 

[Feanturi]

That sounds like a very cool set up.

Could be that your use of GSE may be keeping whatever parasites or intestinal bugs at bay but isn't totally killing them, and they all probably need a full work up and exam. Hang in there!

>>You may be right. Gads. The advent of the Super-Parasite.

In addition to your thermostats, you should look into getting into a temperature gun if you don't have one already. One of these babies helped me find and replace a malfunctioning thermostat once! I was wondering why the heat mat was getting increasingly hotter, even though it was set at about 85. I temped the area of the probe and It was climbing up to 95 throughout the day. I moved the animal to another cage and continued temp-gunning the probe area, and within a day I came to conclusion that the probe just wasn't working when the heat mat got up to 110! Digital thermometers with probes are great, too, but I really like the portability the temp gun offers. I have one velcroed to the side of my leopard's viv. I bought the temp gun 2 years ago and I haven't had to replace the battery yet and I use it faithfully everyday. If I hadn't used it everyday then I wouldn't have caught the screwy thermostat. All the rest of my thermostats have been in great order and I've had them for over 3 years.

>>I think a temp gun is a great idea. It's been getting more airtime in my planmaking. I'll no doubt keep the dig. probes for each, and do spot readings with the gun. What type of thermostats are you using. I have been pretty much sold on the 500R from ZooMed.