Terrariums...

[theMeanGreen]

I see everyone has snake tanks with fake plants and substrate. My snakes are in these same type tanks, too. But I own a 55g fish tank and was thinking about making it into a terrarium for my bigger snake.

I was thinking of making it into an Oasis type setting. For the hot side I would put sand for substrate and put rocky hides. On the cool side I was thinking of buying some ivy plants (my okeetee loves coiling up around the stems, good cover) which thrive in shade with temps snakes like (70-80). For the substrate I would buy moss and cover the ground with it. There would be a few inches of earth below the moss of course. So one side would be sand, the other would be dark, shadowed by the ivy plant and a soft, mossy floor cover. The water would, of course, be on the cool side, shaded by the plant. Is there any real big reason I should NOT use living plants and natural floor cover?? (bought from a local garden store, not found in wild)

comments and *ideas* appreciated

 

[Snake Dave]

Sand isn't a great substrate to use for snakes. It irritates their scales and their respiratory system. The moss and earth, along with the live plants, would make the tank very humid, leading to scale rot and other problems (high humidity is a catalyst for the development of upper RIs). Is this a Corn snake you're talking about? Were you planning on feeding in the tank? Also, waste would be difficult to find amongst all of that.

I wouldn't recommend doing this.

All the best

David

 

[TWGarland]

That sounds like it would be an awesome tank when finished. This won't be very helpfull but theres a book on natural snake keeping you should look up, can't remember the title or author though, sorry :bang:

Only thing i can think of is, there may be some issues with using sand in a snake vivarium, maybe its ok if only in part of the tank?

Also i think the main concerns in keeping live plants in a snake tank are that some species are easily crushed/damaged by the snakes cruising, and then theres the toxicity of the plant. I'm sure as long as you choose your Ivy species carefully, then neither reason would be a problem for you

All the best

Tom

 

[theMeanGreen]

Sand- arnt there different types of sand I could choose from? tiny ganuals, large, course, smoothed? one that wouldnt irritate the snake?

Humidity-About the tank being too humid. It is a 55g tank. Very LONG, not too wide, so I would think the humidity of the cool side wouldnt move over to the hot side before evaporating. There is alot of hot and cool side so the hot side might be slightly humid next to the plants, but along the wall it should be bone dry.

It is for a Corn snake, yes.

Feeding in the tank- No. I feed my snakes in a plastic tub used for storing clothes. My snake roams and becomes active about 5 days after his last meal, so getting him out shouldnt be a problem when he needs to eat.

Finding waste- Any waste found in the sand would be easy to see. As for the cool side. wouldnt it be ok to let it absorb into the soil and be broken down by natural microbes then made into good soil? But remember, I am buying floor cover moss, not dead moss that you spray to keep humid. So I would be planting the moss in soil all over the cool side with an ivy plant somewhere in there. The moss is thick and I thought the waste would kinda sit on top.

 

[Snake Dave]

Sand- arnt there different types of sand I could choose from? tiny ganuals, large, course, smoothed? one that wouldnt irritate the snake?

Humidity-About the tank being too humid. It is a 55g tank. Very LONG, not too wide, so I would think the humidity of the cool side wouldnt move over to the hot side before evaporating. There is alot of hot and cool side so the hot side might be slightly humid next to the plants, but along the wall it should be bone dry.

It is for a Corn snake, yes.

Feeding in the tank- No. I feed my snakes in a plastic tub used for storing clothes. My snake roams and becomes active about 5 days after his last meal, so getting him out shouldnt be a problem when he needs to eat.

Finding waste- Any waste found in the sand would be easy to see. As for the cool side. wouldnt it be ok to let it absorb into the soil and be broken down by natural microbes then made into good soil? But remember, I am buying floor cover moss, not dead moss that you spray to keep humid. So I would be planting the moss in soil all over the cool side with an ivy plant somewhere in there. The moss is thick and I thought the waste would kinda sit on top.

With regards to sand, no. Coarse and large granules irritate their skin and it's uncomfortable for them. Small grains get into the respiratory system and between the scales. Honestly, sand is a bad idea.

Trust me, with live moss, earth and other live plants, your tank will be humid. Too humid for a Corn snake.

I know there wouldn't be a problem finding waste on sand, but sand doesn't cover the entire tank, does it. How do you plan on giving the tank a proper cleaning, not just spot cleaning if you see poo? Also, if you're using live moss, how do you plan on properly picking the poo up without actually yanking the moss up?

Building a natural set-up is feasible (there's a big thread on the site, use the search function), but it requires a huge amount of planning and work. Not to mention the fact that you must have a huge, living soil area that covers the whole of the tank, not just one part of it. But again, humidity and scale rot becomes an issue.

 

[theMeanGreen]

Ok, I will do some research. I just think a living terrarium would be cool.

 

[kimbyra]

Aspen is by far the best for bark to use instead of sand. Sand really is bad for them. Make sure the dirt side doesn't have any chemicals or fertilizers in it. Dirt that is good for gardens is not always good for snakeys. Terrariums are cool when they're little, but when your'e corn gets big he would be just laying all over it.

I'm concerned about your temps though. 80 degrees on the shade side? I don't let it get to 80 degrees on the hot side nevertheless the shade side. Corns aren't like Ball pythons or other really heat loving snakes.

 

[kimbyra]

Oops, I'm sorry, I read it in my mind wrong. I was thinking 90 degrees. My bad. 80 degrees on the warm side is okay.

 

[theMeanGreen]

not 80 on cool side. i was saying how the plant will be ok withen the temps snake like, 70-85. cool side low 70's

 

[Drizzt80]

There would be absolutely no problem creating a natural terrarium for your corn snake. If it's done right, it would be a beautiful, natural environment that could be the center piece of any room. Seriously, how many corns are lounging in their nice abodes full of aspen down in Flori-day?! Most people don't create a natural terrarium because of the WORK involved in doing it RIGHT. Lazy does not equal right!!

Use a natural substrate that doesn't have fertilizers. A nice rich, loamy, peat-mossed planting soil would probably work great. I know I picked up a bag who's ingredients also had sand as part of the indgredients. Works PERFECT! for my Tarantulas.

Do your homework, keep the humidity down, take out the poop and spot clean and enjoy your beautiful cage for your snake.

D80

 

[ForkedTung]

It does sound like a very cool idea, let us know how it goes...Just don't get hung up on one particular substrate or plant, use what's best for the snake. Maybe some hardy, low water desert type plants would work( do I need to say nothing with spines?) like Aloe or Sebaceous (sp?)types, that hold water and are used to warm, dry conditions. I think I read that keeping them potted is better too, maybe backfill around the pots with small polished stones ( that could be periodicaly be taken out and sterilized, as opposed to sand) would work too... Also allowing the snake pooh to " break down" is probably not a good idea as it would likely turn into a bacteria factory instead, like Drizz said "spot clean". Best of Luck, keep us up to date on your research and progress if you can, Kyle

 

[Bram]

As for the cool side. wouldnt it be ok to let it absorb into the soil and be broken down by natural microbes then made into good soil?

If you want it to be that naturalistic you definitely want to read the book that was mentioned by TWGarland. It's called "The Art of Keeping Snakes", by Phillippe de Vosjoli. I have a copy and read most of it. The author knows his stuff, and it's very well detailed, but the fully naturalistic setup he advocates is a bit too much work for me just yet.
The author does mention that corns fare pretty well on a bioactive subtrate (one in which poo can "break down" in the soil). He also recommends some specific plants that'd work well.

 

[Caryl]

From the research I've done since becoming a corn snake convert, terraria like the OP is considering are more common in the UK and in Europe than they are here in the USA. Most American vivs are rather utilitarian. As was stated by D80, the real issue is whether or not a keeper is willing to put in the time and effort to do it right.

I live on the Missippi Gulf Coast. Corns live here too. Believe you me, there's plenty of sandy soil and plenty of humidity! My tanks are currently the more typical American sort, but I'd love to set up a big one as a mini-ecosystem.

As far as the sand/oasis idea, how about using pea gravel or smooth, small river rock instead of sand? While the snakes in nature do have to deal with less than ideal conditions, we don't want to introduce known challenges in our human-made habitats. No one really understands all the interactions that occur in any ecosytem, and any viv is a small scall ecosystem.

I love the idea! Keep us posted on how it goes, please.

 

[TWGarland]

No one really understands all the interactions that occur in any ecosytem, and any viv is a small scall ecosystem.

I love the idea! Keep us posted on how it goes, please.

Science knows increasingly more about the usually complex relationships between communities and their environment. Ecology is no different from virtually all other fields of science, no one fully understands any topic.

An ecosystem is defined as ecological communities functioning together within an environment, so a vivarium isn't an ecosystem thats for sure

All the best

Tom

 

[Caryl]

Yes, TWGarland, science does indeed understand "increasingly more about the usually complex relationships between communities and their environment." As a science teacher, I certainly did not intend to imply otherwise. I was only stating that known difficulties -such as a sand substrate - should be avoided. Too many unknown and poorly understood difficulties can arise in interactions between the living and nonliving participants in the tank. This is not to say understanding does not exist, nor to impugn current scientific knowledge.

Science cannot predict with certainty all the interactions within an ecosytem. And yes, a viv is a small ecosystem. I don't wish to debate semantics, but there are other definitions for this term than the one you have chosen, such as Merriam Webster's below.

Main Entry: eco·sys·tem
Function: noun : the complex of a community of organisms and its environment functioning as an ecological unit

The vast majority of the organisms within a viv are invisible to us, but they are still there and function as part of the mini-ecosystem within a viv. In a set-up like the OP contemplates, the ecological unit of the viv may be balanced, and kept that way with monitoring and effort on the part of the keeper. For most tanks, balance isn't a factor. We as humans maintain conditions suitable for the kept creature, in this case a corn snake.

 

[TWGarland]

Cool reply, interesting stuff, thanks

The vast majority of the organisms within a viv are invisible to us, but they are still there and function as part of the mini-ecosystem within a viv.

Yep, relationships between micro-organisms, makes it very complex. To what level do microbial communities function with other elements of the 'ecosystem' in a vivarium though? Cleaning etc.? If you get microbial, then why just argue any vivarium as an eco-system?, you could argue everything/everywhere an eco-system in that regard.

In a set-up like the OP contemplates, the ecological unit of the viv may be balanced, and kept that way with monitoring and effort on the part of the keeper. For most tanks, balance isn't a factor. We as humans maintain conditions suitable for the kept creature, in this case a corn snake.

In your original post you say ANY vivarium is a small scale eco-system? I guess apart from the microbial i have trouble considering the relationships and equilibrium between aspen, water and a heat mat.

All the best
Tom

 

[Caryl]

Well, Tom, as stated, I didn't intend to open a semantics debate. I could follow the logic on down the path into absurdity; the aspen and the microbes and the heating pad do in fact interact, even if in ways we neither monitor, notice nor care about. So?

Obviously there are far-reaching differences between a 10-gal tank in someone's living room and the Florida Everglades. Is the former an "ecosystem" in the same sense as the latter? I can't imagine anyone fool enough to maintain that such is the case. I'm often a fool, but not one of that particular variety. :laugh01:

Perhaps I was a bit too "off the cuff" in my original post. My intent was only to address the OP's desire for a more naturalistic terrarium/vivarium, and some of the questions about sand and humidity. If you re-read my whole post you'll hopefully understand what was meant. I did not want nor intend to redefine humankind's understanding of what consitutes an ecosystem. Heavens...

To the OP, sorry for the semi-hijack. Do let us know how things progress. I'd very much like to set up something similar in my classroom next year.