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The "strenth" of genes...
- Thread starter UnmeiNoHi
- Start date
Serpwidgets
New member
I don't think Anery vs Lav has been determined yet. It's possible that it could swing either way, depending on secondary factors. (shrug)
Anery overpowers Caramel (Anerys have been produced from Caramels)
I don't think an anery A + charcoal is distinguishable from either. But snows can produce blizzards, so in the presence of amelanism, Charcoal overpowers Anery.
Anery overpowers Caramel (Anerys have been produced from Caramels)
I don't think an anery A + charcoal is distinguishable from either. But snows can produce blizzards, so in the presence of amelanism, Charcoal overpowers Anery.
After three years of trials, I have come to the conclusion that Lavender overpowers 'A' Anerythrism. That surprises me, but after about a dozen clutches or more of Anerythristics het for Lavender bred together over those three years, the results are pretty much conclusive. At least in the micro universe of SerpenCo.
If anyone else has tried this and gotten conflicting results, I would certainly like to hear about it. NOTHING would surprise me these days.
If anyone else has tried this and gotten conflicting results, I would certainly like to hear about it. NOTHING would surprise me these days.
That is correct. Snows het for Lavender appear to produce all typical Snows. This also is after breeding results over three successive years.
However I have documented before that breeding 'A' Anerythristics het for Lavender will produce Lavenders, seeming to indicate that those animals homozygous for both Lavender and 'A' Anerythrism are having the expression of 'A' Anerythrism inhibited.
If you want to try to explain how Amelanism being added to the mix alters this situation, have a nice time at it. Beats the heck out of my why it works that way!
However I have documented before that breeding 'A' Anerythristics het for Lavender will produce Lavenders, seeming to indicate that those animals homozygous for both Lavender and 'A' Anerythrism are having the expression of 'A' Anerythrism inhibited.
If you want to try to explain how Amelanism being added to the mix alters this situation, have a nice time at it. Beats the heck out of my why it works that way!
Clint Boyer
'Former' Snake slave
What would you call this?.........
This is the product of a Lav X Lav, both het anery 'A'.
It's much different looking then the other Lavs I've had hatched.
Is it a Lavender? If Lav dominates anery 'A' then it would have to be, right?
This is the product of a Lav X Lav, both het anery 'A'.
It's much different looking then the other Lavs I've had hatched.
Is it a Lavender? If Lav dominates anery 'A' then it would have to be, right?
Well, this is definitely curious!
That looks like it coule be either 'A' Anerythristic or Charcoal to me.
Are you certain those Lavs are not also het for Charcoal?
I have bred LOTS of Lavenders that wound up proving to be het for Anerythrism and never once got an Anerythristic in a Lavender to Lavender breeding. Gotten Snows in Opal to Opal breedings (which sure was not welcomed), however.
I have bred Lavenders and Blizzards together and gotten clutches with both Lavenders and Charcoals in the mix. But how would you tell if one (Charcoal or Lavender) dominated the other without going another step further? Not that I have had an interest to do so.
I don't even want to think about what it would mean if Clint's animal turns out to be 'A' Anerythrism... Ignoring the possibility I lost my mind somewhere along the way, of course...
What were the other animals in that clutch, Clint? Was the female exposed to any other males?
That looks like it coule be either 'A' Anerythristic or Charcoal to me.
Are you certain those Lavs are not also het for Charcoal?
I have bred LOTS of Lavenders that wound up proving to be het for Anerythrism and never once got an Anerythristic in a Lavender to Lavender breeding. Gotten Snows in Opal to Opal breedings (which sure was not welcomed), however.
I have bred Lavenders and Blizzards together and gotten clutches with both Lavenders and Charcoals in the mix. But how would you tell if one (Charcoal or Lavender) dominated the other without going another step further? Not that I have had an interest to do so.
I don't even want to think about what it would mean if Clint's animal turns out to be 'A' Anerythrism... Ignoring the possibility I lost my mind somewhere along the way, of course...
What were the other animals in that clutch, Clint? Was the female exposed to any other males?
Darin Chappell
Very Senior Hillbilly
I guess it's just my computer screen, but that animal looks more caramel than anery "a." Any chance of that?
Clint Boyer
'Former' Snake slave
the rest of the clutch.....
Didn't make it.
I did find one pic with the only other egg that hatched. It's not a great pic but you can see the Lavender colors in the other one.
The rest of the 3 unhatched fully developed snakes appeared to be Opals.
The female is a '00 SerpenCo E.g.g. # 000825
The male is a '00 SerpenCo E.g.g. # 000914
Both bought as het amel, which they are. There were no other males in contact with her this year.
Last year she was mated a SerpenCo amel het Lav from the "Pearl" line of which the original male died. That clutch consisted of a Lavender, Opals, a Snow and two normals.
*Edit*
Darin, I don't see the normal Caramel colors on that one in person. Sometimes colors get distortrd.
I do know the male is het anery 'A' from breeding it to a Snow last year, resulting in anery 'A's, normals, a Snow and an amel.
Didn't make it.
I did find one pic with the only other egg that hatched. It's not a great pic but you can see the Lavender colors in the other one.
The rest of the 3 unhatched fully developed snakes appeared to be Opals.
The female is a '00 SerpenCo E.g.g. # 000825
The male is a '00 SerpenCo E.g.g. # 000914
Both bought as het amel, which they are. There were no other males in contact with her this year.
Last year she was mated a SerpenCo amel het Lav from the "Pearl" line of which the original male died. That clutch consisted of a Lavender, Opals, a Snow and two normals.
*Edit*
Darin, I don't see the normal Caramel colors on that one in person. Sometimes colors get distortrd.
I do know the male is het anery 'A' from breeding it to a Snow last year, resulting in anery 'A's, normals, a Snow and an amel.
Hmm,
The parents of 000925 = Amel Lavender (father) x Normal het Lavender (mother)
The parents of 000914 = Amel Lavender (father) x Normal het Blizzard & Lavender (mother)
Same father in both instances.
Without tracking any further back, there certainly is Charcoal in that mixture. But nothing more concrete to go on. If you keep the temps relatively cool in your enclosures, there is always the possibility of retained sperm from last year. I haven't seen any definite indications of that happening with corns, but I wouldn't rule it out if the facts fit the circumstances.
In the case of my breeding Anerys het for Lavender, those females were NEVER exposed to anything except other Anerys either definitely or possibly het for Lavender.
The parents of 000925 = Amel Lavender (father) x Normal het Lavender (mother)
The parents of 000914 = Amel Lavender (father) x Normal het Blizzard & Lavender (mother)
Same father in both instances.
Without tracking any further back, there certainly is Charcoal in that mixture. But nothing more concrete to go on. If you keep the temps relatively cool in your enclosures, there is always the possibility of retained sperm from last year. I haven't seen any definite indications of that happening with corns, but I wouldn't rule it out if the facts fit the circumstances.
In the case of my breeding Anerys het for Lavender, those females were NEVER exposed to anything except other Anerys either definitely or possibly het for Lavender.
Clint Boyer
'Former' Snake slave
I guess I'll have to keep it..........
Since I don't know what to lable it as!
Just what I need!
Since I don't know what to lable it as!
Just what I need!
Serpwidgets
New member
rambling thoughts...
It doesn't seem all that odd to me, the idea that whether or not one overrides the other could also be dependent on something else. How many genes does it take to form a cornsnake pattern with all its colors? Three? Twenty? A thousand? (Ok, now picture a big Rube Goldberg device with that many contraptions strung together, some of them working side-by-side.)
I've been thinking about lavender... the weird thing about lavender is that it seems to affect every pigment there is. The oranges, reds, yellows, and black/browns are all "not normal" in one way or another. (Looking at my own lav, he's light gray, lighter gray, and white. I've never seen either of these "grays" on any cornsnake, other than lavenders.)
In order to do all of that, you'd think it would have to be some gene which normally has an effect on all pigments... which would probably mean Lavender takes its mutant effect at some part of the "pattern/color formation process" before all of the pigments go their separate ways to do their own things.
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me to think of Lavender as a "pattern" mutation. (As opposed to a color mutation like Amelanism.)
So it would make sense that Lav takes effect first, bypassing Anery before it can do anything, and therefore Lavender + Anery would probably look like a lavender.
-----
I also think there's a possibility that Anery is a "pattern" mutation. (Why is it that a blizzard looks like you'd think it should, but snow looks nothing like what you'd normally expect? Why are there no iridiphores (white) on the saddle areas of snows? And are they present on plain anerys and normals?)
Maybe it's as simple as "Amelanism indeed affects the expression of Anery, making it express earlier in the whole process, and in those cases it bypasses what Lavender would normally be able to affect." (Therefore, Lav + Anery + Amel = Snow.)
-----
Maybe it's that "simple." Yeah we should be so lucky.
Serpwidgets said:
It doesn't seem all that odd to me, the idea that whether or not one overrides the other could also be dependent on something else. How many genes does it take to form a cornsnake pattern with all its colors? Three? Twenty? A thousand?
(Ok, now picture a big Rube Goldberg device with that many contraptions strung together, some of them working side-by-side.)I've been thinking about lavender... the weird thing about lavender is that it seems to affect every pigment there is. The oranges, reds, yellows, and black/browns are all "not normal" in one way or another. (Looking at my own lav, he's light gray, lighter gray, and white. I've never seen either of these "grays" on any cornsnake, other than lavenders.)
In order to do all of that, you'd think it would have to be some gene which normally has an effect on all pigments... which would probably mean Lavender takes its mutant effect at some part of the "pattern/color formation process" before all of the pigments go their separate ways to do their own things.
The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me to think of Lavender as a "pattern" mutation. (As opposed to a color mutation like Amelanism.)
So it would make sense that Lav takes effect first, bypassing Anery before it can do anything, and therefore Lavender + Anery would probably look like a lavender.
-----
I also think there's a possibility that Anery is a "pattern" mutation. (Why is it that a blizzard looks like you'd think it should, but snow looks nothing like what you'd normally expect? Why are there no iridiphores (white) on the saddle areas of snows? And are they present on plain anerys and normals?)
Maybe it's as simple as "Amelanism indeed affects the expression of Anery, making it express earlier in the whole process, and in those cases it bypasses what Lavender would normally be able to affect." (Therefore, Lav + Anery + Amel = Snow.)
-----
Maybe it's that "simple." Yeah we should be so lucky.
Taceas
USW = UB313
Re:
Just being a by-stander to this conundrum I certainly don't want to split any hairs, but:
Clint posted this:
The female is a '00 SerpenCo E.g.g. # 000825
The male is a '00 SerpenCo E.g.g. # 000914
And Rich replied this:
The parents of 000925 = Amel Lavender (father) x Normal het Lavender (mother)
The parents of 000914 = Amel Lavender (father) x Normal het Blizzard & Lavender (mother)
I'm thinking several possibilities:
1. Rich got the correct parentage and just typed the numbers wrong in his reply.
2. He mis-read, looked up, and typed the number he in fact looked up, #000925.
So perhaps if #000825 was correctly traced down, it did have more charcoal in it's heritage than just that single blizzard. =D
Pleas don't take this the wrong way, I'm just as curious as the rest of everyone else here. Just thought that I would point out that little error and see if it helps matters any. =)
Just being a by-stander to this conundrum I certainly don't want to split any hairs, but:
Clint posted this:
The female is a '00 SerpenCo E.g.g. # 000825
The male is a '00 SerpenCo E.g.g. # 000914
And Rich replied this:
The parents of 000925 = Amel Lavender (father) x Normal het Lavender (mother)
The parents of 000914 = Amel Lavender (father) x Normal het Blizzard & Lavender (mother)
I'm thinking several possibilities:
1. Rich got the correct parentage and just typed the numbers wrong in his reply.
2. He mis-read, looked up, and typed the number he in fact looked up, #000925.
So perhaps if #000825 was correctly traced down, it did have more charcoal in it's heritage than just that single blizzard. =D
Pleas don't take this the wrong way, I'm just as curious as the rest of everyone else here. Just thought that I would point out that little error and see if it helps matters any. =)
Clint Boyer
'Former' Snake slave
Hmmm...
Thanks for your efforts Rich, I know you've got better things to do besides chasing down old records.
One thing I know for certain is that it is homo Lavender. I guess I'll just have to wait an see how it does, maybe some breeding tests are in the future.
As my small collection grows and these oddities crop up, I often wonder how breeders with large collections can keep from doubling thier size every year! I guess it's a matter of setting limits and then just going with what interests you?
Thanks for your efforts Rich, I know you've got better things to do besides chasing down old records.
One thing I know for certain is that it is homo Lavender. I guess I'll just have to wait an see how it does, maybe some breeding tests are in the future.
As my small collection grows and these oddities crop up, I often wonder how breeders with large collections can keep from doubling thier size every year! I guess it's a matter of setting limits and then just going with what interests you?
Serpwidgets
New member
I have a dumb question: do the lavs from anery parents still develop the oranges before they hit adulthood?
Actually, so far, all of the Lavenders homozygous for 'A' Anerythrism (I'm assuming that's what they are, based on the parentage), that I have held back have turned out rather bland looking. NONE have gotten the orange tinging that I prefer in the Lavenders. I should get rid of them, but I am curious to see what they heck happens in the next generation. Hopefully it won't bend my mind even further then it already is!